tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post3305255261203164413..comments2024-03-23T04:23:48.076+00:00Comments on Tandleman's Beer Blog: No Real Case to AnswerUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger51125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-24854933858835286782010-11-20T13:23:30.158+00:002010-11-20T13:23:30.158+00:00This comment has been removed by the author.Gazza Prescotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11834776854227668409noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-11985111848270423542010-11-20T13:18:20.198+00:002010-11-20T13:18:20.198+00:00Pins have several major disadvantages in that:
1)...Pins have several major disadvantages in that:<br /><br />1) They get nicked frequently, often by homebrewers.<br />2) They cost almost the same to buy as a 9.<br />3) You get proportionally more "bottoms" in 2 pins than a 9 which means you make less return on the beer.<br />4) A lot of pubs use self-tilting stillage which usually can't accommodate them.<br /><br />They are great things, pins, but there are many reasons - such as the above - why pubs and fests don't like them.Gazza Prescotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11834776854227668409noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-42481409913089974362010-11-19T07:30:13.101+00:002010-11-19T07:30:13.101+00:00Pins are good too. If you can come across them.Pins are good too. If you can come across them.Tandlemanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06804499573827044693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-3285480280272541022010-11-18T17:10:04.781+00:002010-11-18T17:10:04.781+00:00"you probably shouldn't be selling cask b..."you probably shouldn't be selling cask beer at all if you need an aspirator."<br /><br />Possibly, though there is the 4.5G pin which may be suitable (only half as much beer to shift). I have seen stainless pins very recently at a festival - it's not like they don't exist, though they are rarely seen. <br /><br />Though I suspect it does little for the economics of having the beer in house as it'll almost certainly be more expensive per pint to buy in.Graemehttp://www.chromosphere.co.uknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-76178597842041716232010-11-18T00:07:07.309+00:002010-11-18T00:07:07.309+00:00Excellent blog article - ever thought of running f...Excellent blog article - ever thought of running for CAMRA chairman?<br /><br />As the one who possibly kickstarted / walked into the whole debate, it's been an interesting discussion.Rob Nicholsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14871887147718814739noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-82369324175767804032010-11-17T17:07:06.210+00:002010-11-17T17:07:06.210+00:00Oh and Jeff, do pack in the snide comments. You re...Oh and Jeff, do pack in the snide comments. You really are starting to push it a bit. I've had my humble pie.<br /><br />Keep me honest indeed.Tandlemanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06804499573827044693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-58075625792594254732010-11-17T17:02:22.281+00:002010-11-17T17:02:22.281+00:00Graeme - Agreed
Jeff - Context is all. My conext ...Graeme - Agreed<br /><br />Jeff - Context is all. My conext was that you probably shouldn't be selling cask beer at all if you need an aspirator.<br /><br />And yes. Oxygen will spoil beer. It will eventually spoil beer in your kegs. It is a question of duration. As I said "There is a corollary to this, which goes along the lines of "if you need a breather on all your beers, you probably shouldn't be selling cask". <br /><br />You can step in in these cases. Now. I'm done on this.Tandlemanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06804499573827044693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-42863964380252398702010-11-17T16:39:11.134+00:002010-11-17T16:39:11.134+00:00"And Nick has already pointed out that air pr..."And Nick has already pointed out that air pressure is by no means anathema to quality lager."<br /><br />Well now, I was referring to Br. Roppelt in Stiebarlimbach, who serve Kellerbier from a 1000 litre plastic bag stuck in a tank. A compressor pumps air into the tank, squishing the bag and forcing the naturally carbonated Bier out to the tap. <br /><br />In other cases though, the best Kellerbier(s) round here are served "bayerisch Anstich", or under gravity. I know of no places where an air pump is used in place of forced CO2, if this is what we're talking about.Erlangernickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09564871714656285737noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-12117952328206774202010-11-17T14:21:06.370+00:002010-11-17T14:21:06.370+00:00Tandleman,
I'm just trying to keep you honest...Tandleman,<br /><br />I'm just trying to keep you honest, that is all, nothing to do with your other outburst as I forgive you on that one.<br /><br />You did state that cask breathers are unnecessary because, <i>"So does the Race spile which uses the CO2 produced within the cask to do the job"</i> which is nonsense, sorry.<br /><br />I'll contact Tony and see if he can set me straight on the benefits of the race spile. Remember manufacturers are in business to sell kit. Have a Red Bull, it gives you wings, apparently.Jeff Rosenmeierhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14394121696731343956noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-51524240839199927272010-11-17T13:28:39.554+00:002010-11-17T13:28:39.554+00:00"The race spile simply lets the cask vent CO2..."The race spile simply lets the cask vent CO2" - dammit - should read "The race spile simply stops the cask venting CO2" (thus preventing air from getting in).<br /><br />Either way the result is as soon as you let the air in by using the beer, it starts to spoil.Graemehttp://www.chromosphere.co.uknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-21975074881407837692010-11-17T13:22:26.376+00:002010-11-17T13:22:26.376+00:00It's the oxygen that gets drawn into the keg t...It's the oxygen that gets drawn into the keg that causes oxidation and spoilage of the beer - you must let air in to be able to draw beer out. <br /><br />The race spile simply lets the cask vent CO2 after inserting the spile without the possibility of air getting in. While it extends the life of the cask before it starts to get emptied, it won't do much after you have drawn half the beer out, and have had to let in air to replace the beer. This is where the cask breather does extend the life of the cask (in theory) by reducing the CO2 let into the cask.<br /><br />From your link provided:<br />"Wastage of real ales can be virtually eliminated by using ‘race spiles’ to prolong the life of beer in cask." - I find this somewhat misleading - yes it prolongs the life of an opened cask, but it doesn't prevent oxidation of the beer once you start serving it.Graemehttp://www.chromosphere.co.uknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-11566624517076851982010-11-17T00:08:55.149+00:002010-11-17T00:08:55.149+00:00I recall Jeff Rosenmeier commenting on a blog that...I recall Jeff Rosenmeier commenting on a blog that CAMRA was an irrelevance as far as he and his company were concerned. If that is so, I cannot see why they are remotely bothered what our views are one way or another.<br /><br />I have tried a Lovibonds beer (at a Thornbridge thrash last year). As you might expect it was on keg and it was an adequate wheat beer (as I recall). Not bad but nothing special. In fairness, though, they do sound as though some of their more recent offerings may be of interest.John Clarkehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00132845616834779091noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-8432058066781655782010-11-16T23:44:29.282+00:002010-11-16T23:44:29.282+00:00Jason
Nothing to disaagre with there. I wish you ...Jason<br /><br />Nothing to disaagre with there. I wish you and your company luck.Tandlemanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06804499573827044693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-78513740647576003962010-11-16T23:43:24.684+00:002010-11-16T23:43:24.684+00:00Jeff - though what you say is true (a non return v...Jeff - though what you say is true (a non return valve) that isn't the whole story. I suggest that you take the matter up with the manufacturers. They are clearly deluded. I'm not going to try and convince you of anything. You are clearly a man that regards an olive branch as a sign of weakness. <br /><br />I'll leave you with a quote though,<br /><br />"Wastage of real ales can be virtually eliminated by using ‘race spiles’ to prolong the life of beer in cask."<br /><br />Tony Brookes<br />The Head Of Steam Ltd<br /><br />http://southportbooze.wordpress.com/about/stuff-the-supermarkets-manifesto/<br /><br />He runs real ale pubs and has done so for years, so what does he know?Tandlemanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06804499573827044693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-47890174211000251672010-11-16T20:58:14.625+00:002010-11-16T20:58:14.625+00:00Tandleman, just to be clear I am not saying that y...Tandleman, just to be clear I am not saying that you have said anything bad about our brewery or beer, nothing that you have not apologised for that is. <br /><br />And yes as a small growing business we do face challenges but I don't think the challenge is as big as you think. In our experience most people don't care if their beer is in a keg/cask or if it comes from a hand pump or a lager tap.<br /><br />What people do care about is how the beer tastes, and if it suits their tastes, and this is why there is a place in the market for breweries like Lovibonds.Jason Stevensonhttp://www.lovibonds.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-57483012035347151202010-11-16T20:49:47.307+00:002010-11-16T20:49:47.307+00:00Well you are wrong regarding the race spile. It w...Well you are wrong regarding the race spile. It will in no way extend the life of a cask, as in order to pump 40 litres of beer to the bar you need to bring 40 litres of cellar air into the cask.<br /><br />A race spile is effectively a non return (1 way) valve which doesn't allow a cask to vent. It really just stops the publican from having to hard spile after a session.Jeff Rosenmeierhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14394121696731343956noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-20104949596013779622010-11-16T20:37:44.817+00:002010-11-16T20:37:44.817+00:00Jeff - PLease explain your understanding of a Race...Jeff - PLease explain your understanding of a Race spile then. I said that the Race spile "extends the life of the cask and helps slow turnover beers".<br /><br />You clearly disagree with that. I did not claim it stopped air entering the cask. So what disinformation did I spread? <br /><br />I do hope you aren't still vexed about the injudicious remarks I made and for which I apologised. I do not spread disinformation and unlike many in this game, if I am wrong, I'll readily say so and take the rap. You've had your pop too, so let's call it a draw eh? I'm not your enemy. Trust me on that one.<br /><br /><br />Jason - I don't rubbish your beers and am sorry that some people, some CAMRA people do, but you have an uphill struggle. I do agree that perhaps there should be a rewording of some of the text on CAMRA's webite and have said so publicly, but you are caught in the bind that has been created by poor keg beer. That's why you face an uphill task.<br /><br />Anyway, as I said, I look forward to trying them sometime.Tandlemanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06804499573827044693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-71057334801718498802010-11-16T19:49:29.937+00:002010-11-16T19:49:29.937+00:00I would just like to point out that Lovibonds have...I would just like to point out that Lovibonds have not asked for or are not asking for the support of CAMRA, equally we are not "Anti CAMRA"<br /><br />Both Jeff and I were members of CAMRA when we opened the brewery we invited all of the local branches to attend which they happily did.<br /><br />As you suggest we did try and change things from within but were quickly rounded upon so decided to concentrate our efforts where we were welcome.<br /><br />The issue we have is that since that day certain members of CAMRA have campaigned against us and rubbished our business.<br /><br />Is it because we make bad beer? Our sales figures and year on year growth of over 60% would suggest not.<br /><br />So why do people feel that they can rubbish our beers and way of production without even trying them?<br /><br />Because CAMRA and others tell them that all kegged beer is rubbish pasteurised and/or filtered with added chemicals and represents everything that CAMRA campaigns against. People take this on board, and then use this to rubbish our business without even trying our beers.<br /><br />I know that CAMRA do some great work and we fully support their campaign on ending the pub tie, which Jeff gave evidence to the commons select committee in support of their campaign. I also believe that it would not be their intention to campaign against a brewery.<br /><br />But the fact remains that passionate people often take things too far, and whilst CAMRA continue to make statements about "ALL" kegged beer being "fizzy muck" these more radical people will continue to actively campaign against us.<br /><br />We do not expect that we will take over the world or craft beer in keg will replace cask in fact I would think that would be a sad day for UK brewing if that happened and are happy for our beers to speak for themselves. <br /><br />Forcing compressed air from a dirty non filtered compressor into beer does one thing, spoils it very quickly, and it is for this reason that Lovibonds would not let our beer be served in this way. We are a young brewery and don't want peoples first impression of our product to be a bad one. <br /><br />Why do you not see more great kegged beer in lots more pubs? well that is simple, whilst the beer tie exists 90% of pubs in the UK are only allowed to sell kegs supplied by their PubCo or brewery, the PubCo has an exclusive agreement with a "fizzy muck" supplier for all their keg beers, but may be able to supply cask through either DDS or have 1 pump free of tie.<br /><br />Our customers are mainly more boutique type pubs and restaurants that are in the 10% of un-tied outlets, however we are also in some "real ale" pubs where our beer goes down equally as well.<br /><br />We are currently trying key kegs with the intention of widening our distribution network, as these get around the problem of kegs getting returned.<br /><br />If you know of a free of tie pub near you that would be interested in taking our beer drop me an e-mail and and we will try and sort it out.<br /><br />Jason Stevenson<br />Lovibonds Brewery<br />jason@lovibonds.comJason Stevensonhttp://www.lovibonds.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-26070615212979658392010-11-16T18:45:13.667+00:002010-11-16T18:45:13.667+00:00Sorry Tandy but I have to stop you from spreading ...Sorry Tandy but I have to stop you from spreading more disinformation.<br /><br />A race spile doesn't do anything to stop air from entering a cask. You will still get rancid pong using a race spile.Jeff Rosenmeierhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14394121696731343956noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-87490384984011400782010-11-15T15:15:55.463+00:002010-11-15T15:15:55.463+00:00I have friends who enjoy real ale and will seek ou...I have friends who enjoy real ale and will seek out new brews but have no depth of interest in brewing processes. I don't think they would have any particular interest in craft keg and they certainly have no knowledge of who Brewdog are, the hype doesn't really travel beyond enthusiasts. The whole craft keg thing seems a bit like a mid life crises, a desperate attempt for relevance.I think CAMRA's commitment to a rigid definition for real ale has created an environment where a good quality keg beer could be produced, because anything mediocre would just not get support. The real ale market has helped a lot of interesting continental style beers thrive. The one place I can get Freedom lager on draught? my local real ale pub.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-51426441674680136812010-11-15T08:58:04.623+00:002010-11-15T08:58:04.623+00:00I think the idea that there are hordes of under-30...I think the idea that there are hordes of under-30s poised to join CAMRA the moment we embrace "craft keg" is I think as valid an argument as the one that there were hordes of non-smokers about to use pubs again following the smoking ban. <br /><br />Similarly I really do not believe at all that CAMRA's failure to embrace "craft keg" is preventing virtually any under-30s from joining. Most thinking drinkers are well aware of what CAMRA is for and join it for what it is for and not what it is against. I would also suggest that most people are intelligent enough to "live with the dichotomy" (should they perceive there to be one) as Tandleman says. <br /><br />In any event, and this really does seem to need saying time and time again, there is but the tiniest handful of brewers making "craft keg" in any meaningful way (locally Phoenix and Outstanding restrict this to their lager and Belgian/German-style wheat beers). Most people have never encountered it or heard of its producers (apart from Brew Dog). It is at the moment a complete irrelvance in the bigger picture of the UK craft beer scene. The suggestion that "brewers such as Lovibond can make a keg beer that causes cask beer brewers, and retailers, to raise their game and improve the standards of cask beer as served in the UK" is unfounded assertion at best and frankly just bizarre. It might, just might, have some grounds if "craft keg" was a remotely serious competitor to cask. But it is not. CAMRA's message to Martyn and others should be - "come back when it is, and then we'll think about it". My guess is we will be in for a long wait.John Clarkehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00132845616834779091noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-15048515090360174582010-11-15T08:23:58.328+00:002010-11-15T08:23:58.328+00:00Reply to Martyn, continued
"The biggest thre...Reply to Martyn, continued<br /><br />"The biggest threat to cask ale is poor cask ale, not "new keg", and that's one problem Camra isn't doing enough about."<br /><br />Now we're talking. I couldn't agree more. That's why I bang on about quality in my blog and tweets ad nauseum. CAMRA does need to do much more in this area. Bang that drum as much as you can and I'll join in with enthusiasm.<br /><br />"The other problem is Camra's failure to support tasty beer of all sorts, as epitomised by the Freedom Lager issue."<br /><br />There is no Freedom Lager issue per se and where is all this British brewed beer that CAMRA doesn't support? Name it and where we'll find it. I have also pointed out where CAMRA does take a wider view and support non real ales.<br /><br />"This "we're only interested in cask ale" line is in danger of condemning it to irrelevancy, as beer drinkers under 30 ignore it for failing to encompass all the beers they like to enjoy:"<br />I think drinkers under 30 that join CAMRA are quite intelligent enough to pick the bones out of that conundrum for themselves. They certainly can't be that worried about quality British keg, as like as not, they haven't ever had any. And a growing membership may point to many things, but irrelevancy wouldn't appear to be foremost.<br /><br />"see here for an admission that Camra is finding it difficult to attract active younger members. Possibly because of ludicrous suggestions such as the idea that Freedom could have its lager served up at a Camra beer festival "via an air compressor under its own internal CO2". Do you think the average drinker in search of decent beer cares about how artisanal lager is dispensed? <br /><br />Bit contradictory there Martyn. They are worried about "ludicrous suggestions" about air pressure and "they (sic) don't care how artisanal lager is dispensed". Which is it?<br /><br />"What they want to know is: does Freedom lager taste any good? If yes, it deserves promoting as an alternative to dire mass-produced lagers – regardless of how it is dispensed, which ought, anyway, to be the way the brewer intended it to be dispensed."<br /><br />I do understand this point and have in fact showed the shining path to change. It is called persuasion and democracy. And Nick has already pointed out that air pressure is by no means anathema to quality lager. It seems then that the dogma here is from Freedom, not CAMRA.<br /><br />Lastly, you will find that motivating CAMRA members to be active is difficult across all age groups, not just for CAMRA, but almost every voluntary organisation<br /><br />Incidentally one of the main reasons young people join CAMRA is to receive membership benefits. Also I am sure that there is far better things for most young people to do than to sit in pubs talking about beer. If I was young again I'd be out chasing women, not yakking about beer in upstairs rooms of pubs. Sometimes the reason “why” is actually rather obvious. (-;<br /><br />Lastly, I have raised the issue of "craft" beer at the CAMRA Review Forum and will do so again, but there is no change to the way that CAMRA works that can be imposed on its members. That's that bloody democracy nuisance again. Its a bugger! Want change? Join, argue and persuade.Tandlemanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06804499573827044693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-64360474626641152102010-11-15T08:23:22.413+00:002010-11-15T08:23:22.413+00:00Due to restrictions on the amount of characters, m...Due to restrictions on the amount of characters, my response to Martyn Cornell is in two comment posts.<br /><br />"Sorry to rain on your backslapping 'well, we've successfully seen off those horrid Camra critics' party"<br /><br />Nice one Martyn, but hardly so. My objection isn't to change, but I am concerned about why and how change might be brought about. Pressure from a very small minority of drinkers and keg brewers isn't that persuasive to me on its own.<br /><br />"but by concentrating your ire on the straw man suggestion that Camra's critics want it to embrace the same keg beer it rejected in 1971, you've ignored the real case against Camra: that it's not doing what it was supposed to do, support tasty beer. No, not just save cask ale: defeat bad beer."<br /><br />Well not me. I gave some background perspective as to why CAMRA members might be suspicious about keg beer and pointed out that there isn't enough of the "new wave" of keg beers for anyone much to know anything about them. <br /><br />"Old-fashioned keg beer died because it was horrible - and as Zak points out, modern container beer can still be not just "not as good as cask" but undrinkably vile."<br /><br />Well of course it hasn't died out as such, just mutated into smoothflow - which isn't all bad actually, though some can be bloody awful. (I quite like some smoothflow milds and stouts)<br /><br />"However, if brewers such as Lovibond can make a keg beer that causes cask beer brewers, and retailers, to raise their game and improve the standards of cask beer as served in the UK, then fantastic." <br /><br />Not sure that people are brewing keg beer for that reason and that cask producers are scared of its quality. As I said before almost nobody has tasted it, so that point would seem moot at best.Tandlemanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06804499573827044693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-57590832249481159542010-11-15T06:26:25.349+00:002010-11-15T06:26:25.349+00:00jodonnnell: Point 1 - It was and will be ever thus...jodonnnell: Point 1 - It was and will be ever thus. No-one can demand to see the cellar<br /><br />Point 2 - I know of other breweries though these are the noisiest, apart from Meantime which I just forgot about. Phoenix only kegs pilsner and specialist fruit beer though. I've written about this in my blog and the beers are good.<br /><br />Point 3 - Things may well change and as I said, no problem if that's what the members want.Tandlemanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06804499573827044693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-83951318280529753332010-11-15T00:09:18.146+00:002010-11-15T00:09:18.146+00:00An interesting post to read from the outside. Er....An interesting post to read from the outside. Er...inside -- I'm a brand new, young member! (Mid forties though, how young *is* that?)<br /><br />The only time I've had either Thornbridge or BrewDog, they've been cask or bottled. The former most recently a few days ago in Nuremberg, of all places, at the beverages convention, in the modern kegs with the line-that-floats-inside-the-cask-that-leads-to-the-handpump thingy. (Did I mention that Jaipur is really, really, really good?)<br /><br />http://i51.tinypic.com/1zx9id1.jpg is a crappy Foto of the keg in question--that's some sort of spile hanging off the end of that red bit. Pity the jackets didn't keep the beers properly cool though!<br /><br />AFA Real Lager being served under compressed air, I can say this is the way one of Germany's absolute BEST beers is served, the Kellerbier at the Roppelt Keller in the village of Stiebarlimbach near Bamberg. The regular keg version at the Gasthaus is disappointing in comparison.Erlangernickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09564871714656285737noreply@blogger.com