tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post37141112753443055..comments2024-03-23T04:23:48.076+00:00Comments on Tandleman's Beer Blog: A Crafty ConundrumUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger46125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-32599565675873086232012-09-29T01:51:27.148+01:002012-09-29T01:51:27.148+01:00The thing about beers is in fact they are healthy ...The thing about beers is in fact they are healthy for people in small quantities. Drinkers abuse it and became addicted to it.Gluten Free Productshttp://www.delidivine.co.uknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-69535857499551765842012-09-25T12:31:42.059+01:002012-09-25T12:31:42.059+01:00PS - Tandleman, I remember your Working Group arti...PS - Tandleman, I remember your Working Group article and thought the proposals exactly the right first steps. It was indeed annoying they were knocked down so thoughtlessly.John Westhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15471796457374078158noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-64402913692229462852012-09-25T12:29:41.322+01:002012-09-25T12:29:41.322+01:00"What we really mean by craft beer in most ci..."What we really mean by craft beer in most circumstances is craft keg"<br /><br />I think this *might* be true in beer blogging circles, but I don't think it is to customers. Craft is a marketing term, best used (when used honestly) by pubs and bars than breweries to signify "brewed for flavour".<br /><br />I have some sympathy for those arguing CAMRA could come up with a definition of craft, but a technical definition of craft excluding cask would be a shot in the foot for the organisation that primarily defends cask! I want cask to be craft (i.e. brewed for flavour/NOT Carling - delete as applicable).<br /><br />I do see some merit in CAMRA keeping its cask focus but recognising a tightly defined range of keg products (unpasteurised? could that be the technical fix?). But the focus on cask has to be maintained; it is unique.John Westhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15471796457374078158noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-22251441754894239262012-09-25T10:29:49.487+01:002012-09-25T10:29:49.487+01:00Think they're inextricably linked. If you'...Think they're inextricably linked. If you're not using it for anything other than pub chat and pondering, you don't need a strict definition. A strict definition is only required when it's going to be used in the real world to make decisions.Baileyhttp://boakandbailey.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-47328374219988718792012-09-25T09:56:17.345+01:002012-09-25T09:56:17.345+01:00Bailey- with respect you are conflating two differ...Bailey- with respect you are conflating two different things. The definition and what people should do with the definition.Tandlemanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06804499573827044693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-47365927967905995782012-09-25T09:46:53.349+01:002012-09-25T09:46:53.349+01:00Well, what if CAMRA just came up with a definition...Well, what if CAMRA just came up with a definition of 'small producer keg beer that is welcome at our festivals, subject to organiser approval' and avoided using the term craft beer altogether? That would be fine too, though a wasted opportunity to communicate easily with people who are excited about craft beer.Baileyhttp://boakandbailey.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-77824181610258358932012-09-25T09:43:36.574+01:002012-09-25T09:43:36.574+01:00Bailey says:"Craft beer can be reclaimed! (An...Bailey says:"Craft beer can be reclaimed! (And that's worth doing as it's a snappy phrase, like real ale.)"<br /><br />I sort of agree and disagree. See my comments to Phil above. What we really mean by craft beer in most circumstances is craft keg, even though that ill defines craft.<br /><br />Seems to me that what everyone does is take us back round the mulberry bush to where we started.Tandlemanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06804499573827044693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-3855138082531815032012-09-25T09:25:29.610+01:002012-09-25T09:25:29.610+01:00Matt -- in 1969, the Monopolies and Merger Commiss...Matt -- in 1969, the Monopolies and Merger Commission report had to tackle the fact that 'draught' was used by one set of people to mean all beer drawn from a larger container into a glass, while others used it to mean 'cask conditioned'. The SPBW were campaigning to get the definition fixed as 'cask conditioned' from 1968. Its meaning is only obvious now because of years of boring conversation about what it did and didn't mean, and whether it was or wasn't meaningless. Thank God they didn't have blogs...<br /><br />'Real ale' was just a buzz-phrase with no fixed meaning until 1973. Big keg brands had been marketed as 'real bitter', and Carlsberg as 'real' for years before then.<br /><br />Craft beer can be reclaimed! (And that's worth doing as it's a snappy phrase, like real ale.)Baileyhttp://boakandbailey.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-3554377160954177402012-09-25T09:16:31.351+01:002012-09-25T09:16:31.351+01:00Bailey compares the term "craft beer" wi...Bailey compares the term "craft beer" with "the equally nebulous phrases 'proper beer', 'draught beer' and 'real ale' in the early 1970's". I've heard this argument before and never understood it.<br /><br />OK, "proper beer" is subjective but "draught beer" and "real ale" aren't. One's drawn from a cask or keg, the other's cask or bottle-conditioned.Matthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09310220100267028274noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-42589545669514168292012-09-24T23:10:36.767+01:002012-09-24T23:10:36.767+01:00I think what you are hinting at Phil is that the h...I think what you are hinting at Phil is that the horse has bolted and that "craft" is so debased and/or muddled that there is nothing left to hang onto.<br /><br />Yet there is is. In use and in some way, people kind of think they know what it is.Tandlemanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06804499573827044693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-44814175440342198122012-09-24T22:21:28.194+01:002012-09-24T22:21:28.194+01:00"CAMRA says this is craft beer"? In prin..."CAMRA says this is craft beer"? In principle that's not a bad idea, and I'd be in favour of pursuing it further if it ever comes round again. But I wonder how loose you would have to make the definition in order to fit real-world examples which you wouldn't want to leave out. I mean, if we know that craft beer can be pasteurised, can be bland-tasting and can be brewed by Molson Coors, what have you got to hang on to?Philhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07009879034507926661noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-41662235619267186492012-09-24T11:50:04.040+01:002012-09-24T11:50:04.040+01:00It probably can't be defined in a way that sui...It probably can't be defined in a way that suits everyone, or that doesn't leave someone out (and moaning about it...), but for specific practical purposes, definitely.Baileyhttp://boakandbailey.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-8630934590554332812012-09-24T11:28:51.384+01:002012-09-24T11:28:51.384+01:00Ah yes. And what we said above was how we envisage...Ah yes. And what we said above was how we envisaged it.Tandlemanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06804499573827044693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-63674478043490990172012-09-24T11:27:01.157+01:002012-09-24T11:27:01.157+01:00Yes, indeed -- wasn't so much arguing with you...Yes, indeed -- wasn't so much arguing with you as with the idea that there is no way a term like craft beer could ever possibly be defined in a practical way!Baileyhttp://boakandbailey.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-64927468939790810972012-09-24T11:21:57.188+01:002012-09-24T11:21:57.188+01:00Bailey: Which is precisely what I and my fellow W...Bailey: Which is precisely what I and my fellow Working Party on Craft Beer members recommended.<br /><br />CAMRA, in association with SIBA, attempts to write a definition of “craft beer” to help prevent further confusion and abuse of the term – the group feels this<br />definition does not need to be a tight, technical specification, but a broad “qualitative” definition<br /><br />See here:<br /><br />http://tandlemanbeerblog.blogspot.co.uk/2012/04/missed-opportunity.html<br /><br />Worth a re-read actually. Some of us do try and move forward.<br />It was rejected by the NE.<br /><br /><br /><br />Tandlemanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06804499573827044693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-48883174023735404562012-09-24T10:11:43.680+01:002012-09-24T10:11:43.680+01:00There's nothing to stop CAMRA or someone else ...There's nothing to stop CAMRA or someone else doing with 'craft beer' what they did with the equally nebulous phrases 'proper beer', 'draught beer' and 'real ale' in the early 70s, viz. deciding that's what they stood for and then working out a technical definition that they could campaign around. Whitbread and others were marketing their beer as 'proper', 'authentic', etc.., but CAMRA seized the term real ale, made it concrete and took commanding ownership of it, giving their definition almost the force of law. (Or is it legally defined?)Baileyhttp://boakandbailey.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-27134804954787691062012-09-24T05:28:23.897+01:002012-09-24T05:28:23.897+01:00The whole thing makes me sad really. It is amusing...The whole thing makes me sad really. It is amusing however that as others have stated, beers like Guinness and Bass are seen as 'Craft Beers' in the States. See them coming to guest tap at Brewdog soon?<br /><br />It's a lot easier to talk about what shouldn't be part of a definition: size of brewer (ah-la USA) and method of dispense (ah-la UK) Kieran Haslett-Moorehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04562970144894398803noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-8248134589296100122012-09-23T15:07:16.644+01:002012-09-23T15:07:16.644+01:00If "craft keg" is taken to mean what it ...<i>If "craft keg" is taken to mean what it does in the US - a beer made with authentic ingredients by a non-national brewer - then Holt's Crystal is a "craft lager". </i><br /><br />Ha! Whereas Sharp's Connoisseurs Choice and Worthington White Shield...<br /><br />Let's face it, "craft" doesn't guarantee that you're getting a particular style, type of ingredients, production process, mode of dispense, type of brewery or anything else. On the level of "family resemblances" the 'craft' label suggests certain things, but in practice you've got no way of knowing whether a particular craft beer/brewer actually has 'craft' qualities or if it's just a label used by a brewer who would like you to think it has. Generally the more they shout about their 'craft' nature and the more vaguely they define it the more suspicious I get.<br /><br />And a label that is <b>sometimes</b> meaningful but sometimes vacuous marketing drivel isn't really any use, in my view (this is my big disagreement with Boak & Bailey), because it's like a watch that <b>sometimes</b> tells the right time - how can you tell when it's right and when it isn't?Philhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07009879034507926661noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-11766784726603013512012-09-22T10:19:11.556+01:002012-09-22T10:19:11.556+01:00or concentrate evenor concentrate evenJohn Clarkehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00132845616834779091noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-10331784560383994182012-09-22T10:18:30.696+01:002012-09-22T10:18:30.696+01:00I will give it some thought while I'm here:
h...I will give it some thought while I'm here:<br /><br />http://www.brouwerijdemolen.nl/index.php/en/beerfestival/beerfestival.html<br /><br />drinking some of this stuff:<br /><br />http://www.brouwerijdemolen.nl/index.php/en/beerfestival/brewers-and-beers.html<br /><br />Should concetrate (or blur) the mind.John Clarkehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00132845616834779091noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-36914497584289946402012-09-22T10:15:47.419+01:002012-09-22T10:15:47.419+01:00Clearly, we need two versions of the term "cr...Clearly, we need two versions of the term "craft" then: one for the US and one for the UK. In both cases, however, it's best, I think, to talk about what "craft" *isn't*, rather than what it might supposed to be.<br /><br />In the US, it means "non-Bud/Miller/Coors/regional-cack-adjunct-industrolager (except in cases where the Craft Brewer[TM] is specifically brewing an ironically nostalgic cack-adjunct-industrolager clone with Intent and Heart)" and in the UK, it means "non-boring-brown-bitter/lager (except in cases where the Craft Brewer[TM] is specifically brewing an ironically nostalgic Watney's clone with Intent and Heart)". <br /><br />*Much* simpler than trying to define what it is.Erlangernickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09564871714656285737noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-2972473330340932502012-09-22T10:04:06.646+01:002012-09-22T10:04:06.646+01:00My fighting days are over. I'll hold the jacke...My fighting days are over. I'll hold the jackets if a fight breaks out. Or hide under the table.<br /><br />Or run away. I'm not that fussed. Tandlemanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06804499573827044693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-78598661788718521772012-09-22T09:06:16.882+01:002012-09-22T09:06:16.882+01:00'Just go for fisticuffs. You'd take 'e...'Just go for fisticuffs. You'd take 'em Tandy!'<br /><br />I don't know Ed. Tanders is a big fellow, but Zak Avery has a vicious temper and Clarkey's in good shape these days. Watt's not small either. I'd say it'll be a decent scrap.Dominic, Thornbridge Brewerynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-21706598944548970102012-09-22T01:16:36.912+01:002012-09-22T01:16:36.912+01:00"What a line up, if you threw in the Pub Curm...<i>"What a line up, if you threw in the Pub Curmudgeon and Pete Brown I'd stand outside and ask for autographs."</i><br /><br />Well, if taxis to and from are provided, and there is unlimited free beer, I will happily oblige ;-)<br /><br />I reckon you need to get Jim Flynn of S&SM Branch to attend to put across the diehard anti-craft view.Curmudgeonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02558747878308766840noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-72771846235640217722012-09-21T23:44:55.545+01:002012-09-21T23:44:55.545+01:00Of course, similar arguments have been going round...Of course, similar arguments have been going round in other genres for decades. What is "real" music and what is commercial pop drivel? Can we ever really decide? Every brewer wants to make money, and the best way to do that is by brewing beer that people will buy because (presumably) they like it. This applies to Brewdog, it applies to Hawkshead, and it applies to Carling.<br /><br />Drawing an arbitrary line is pointless. If you like a particular style or brand of beer, then campaign for that style or brand of beer. If, like me, you just like beer in general and like to see a wide range of varieties on offer, then campaign for that.py0noreply@blogger.com