tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post5019074887571991169..comments2024-03-29T04:31:31.707+00:00Comments on Tandleman's Beer Blog: CAMRA and the FutureUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger46125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-35858292914810495472019-01-31T12:18:02.475+00:002019-01-31T12:18:02.475+00:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Alinamasshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16707092711299496507noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-84868631550622157652014-02-20T20:07:29.582+00:002014-02-20T20:07:29.582+00:00I do note that the definition of keg beer in this ...I do note that the definition of keg beer in this section is partly outdated:<br /><br />http://www.camra.org.uk/aboutale<br /><br />Some keg beer, e.g. Guinness and the cream or smooth flow type of ale, meets the definition but most fizzy craft beer (i.e., non-cask) isn't pasteurized and much of it still has live yeast, though whether the yeast is working at cold dispense temperatures is debatable.<br /><br />This section should IMO be updated to explain why cask ale differs from even the new style of keg beer. <br /><br />Gary<br /><br />Gary Gillmannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-14371039224836213192014-02-20T18:50:09.759+00:002014-02-20T18:50:09.759+00:00I don't think anyone is arguing for CAMRA to a...I don't think anyone is arguing for CAMRA to actively embrace and champion non-real draught and bottled beers. But the current attitudes of either "they are all crap" or "they are nothing to do with us" are becoming ever more unhelpful and unrepresentative of the way beer enthusiasm is going in this country. <br /><br />Today it was announced that Spoons are going to be stocking American craft cans, which aren't exactly going to appeal to the stereotypical Carlsberg or JS Extra Smooth drinker.Curmudgeonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02558747878308766840noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-23199865666044415022014-02-20T18:46:45.001+00:002014-02-20T18:46:45.001+00:00>It needs to get out and win younger members bu...>It needs to get out and win younger members but also members of all ages and backgrounds. <br /><br />Nobody is disagreeing with you but currently this is clearly *not* happening. You only have to look at the Facebook picture of all the CAMRA regional directors & members of the NE on a bus last weekend to realise that the active membership in CAMRA is much older than it was in the earlier years of the campaign. It's mainly the same people at the helm and that should ring alarm bells for any organisation unless one is happy for that situation to lead to its logical conclusion.<br /><br />CAMRA overall membership is good, beer drinking is increasingly seen as cool by younger people but that is not causing them to rush to take over from the old guard who actually do the hard work of running CAMRA.<br /><br />>That spirit needs to be renewed from time to time.<br /><br />True but we're struggling to determine who is the new enemy.<br /><br />We'd be having this same debate even if Craft Keg had never existed - the "Volunteer" initiative pre-dates all of this.<br /><br />But those devil's advocates of us go "Hmm, craft keg - mainly quality stuff produced by smaller brewers, I wonder if we embraced that whether we'd ensure longevity for CAMRA". I admit I don't know the answer.<br /><br />It could just be that we've run our course and accept the inevitability of it all. Like the Knights of Camelot, CAMRA fades under a hill waiting for when it's needed again ;-)Rob Nicholsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14871887147718814739noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-87678802190613964182014-02-20T18:16:40.682+00:002014-02-20T18:16:40.682+00:00I don't see it as a rock and a hard place. CA...I don't see it as a rock and a hard place. CAMRA is a campaign, that means it works by advocacy, PR. It needs to get out and win younger members but also members of all ages and backgrounds. It can hold comparative tastings, educational seminars, historical discussions (give Cornell or Pattinson a shout), issue press releases, do all the things a lobby knows how to do to influence people.<br /><br />Jackson said another thing I remember: how the English can be insouciant of their best traditions at least until the "Dunkirk spirit" arises, which is what led to CAMRA. That spirit needs to be renewed from time to time.<br /><br />CAMRA is not part of government, it doesn't have to please a majority of people or tastes. But it should fight for what it believes in, and the recent spate of fizzy London Murkys and that kind of beer may be a flash in the pan. Cask ale is much older than that, especially when made with traditional English hops, and has the imprimatur of some distinguished voices even well-before the 1970's, extending to eminences such as George Saintsbury (better known for his wine writing). <br /><br />Cask ale is part of gastronomy, in a word. London Murky isn't, not yet.<br /><br />GaryGary Gillmannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-67743156422786077682014-02-20T16:01:25.664+00:002014-02-20T16:01:25.664+00:00It is this obsession with market share is the prob...It is this obsession with market share is the problem. Apparently we see it as a success if every year less and less people drink cask ale, as long as people are stopping drinking keg beer even quicker.<br /><br />The way we act and talk, you'd think we're not the campaign for real ale at all, we're the campaign against keg beer. Its embarrassing, shortsighted and counterproductive.<br /><br />I'd rather see cask ale numbers go up as part of a growing market, even if it means losing percentage share of the beer market. Anyone who thinks differently doesn't really have the best interests cask ale at heart.pynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-6437634586365172732014-02-20T15:58:17.553+00:002014-02-20T15:58:17.553+00:00I don't think anyone is suggesting that the wo...I don't think anyone is suggesting that the work done in the past was highly praiseworthy. But that *was* the past.<br /><br />You reiterate what Cookie said earlier:<br /><br />a) change the campaign too much and you risk loosing the current active members holding the thing together with no guarantee that the change would bring in more active members<br /><br />b) leave it as it is and accept active membership will wither and die or at least be much reduced<br /><br />The former is high risk with no guarantee of success whereas the later is much more likely but seems so much like giving up. It certainly may harm other campaigning operations which benefit from high engagement and vocal membership.<br /><br />Rock and hard place?Rob Nicholsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14871887147718814739noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-70300187769495516162014-02-20T15:50:36.349+00:002014-02-20T15:50:36.349+00:00I think though of the point Michael Jackson made m...I think though of the point Michael Jackson made many years ago: but for CAMRA, there would likely be no cask ale at all. That is a very important point. Even if its market share is halved in the next 10 years (but I wouldn't assume that), it is worthwhile that CAMRA will exist to permit this level of survival. maybe CAMRA itself will get smaller but its essential mission will have been preserved.<br /><br />From an organizational standpoint, any group wants to grow, but it has to balance the potential benefits of changing its mission against a longer-term perception that it has no clear focus, doesn't stand for anything specific, which itself could lead to disinterest and demise.<br /><br />Gary<br /><br />GaryGary Gillmannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-38965859075599040792014-02-20T10:15:50.885+00:002014-02-20T10:15:50.885+00:00cask ale sales have declined pretty much every yea...cask ale sales have declined pretty much every year since camra was founded. Clearly we are doing something right!<br /><br /><br />Sorry, by "right" I of course mean "horribly wrong".<br /><br />Even when there is no beer drunk in Britain at all, either cask or keg, at least the one remaining 85 year old member of CAMRA will be able to say they maintained a clear anti-keg mandate throughout.pynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-66460751140715147672014-02-20T08:59:19.338+00:002014-02-20T08:59:19.338+00:00I feel it would dilute its mandate and mission to ...I feel it would dilute its mandate and mission to include keg beer in its charter. The fact that you can have great keg beer and poor quality cask does nothing to take away from CAMRA's unique role in preserving a great English heritage. Including keg (thus in all its forms since how can you differentiate?) would mean presumably you would have to include the bottled equivalent and the focus of the organization would get blurred. There was always a need for CAMRA, and if it is true cask ale sales are declining again, surely the need is greater than ever (this is the lull vs. victory thing). Even in the "great" years of British cask ale production, CAMRA was needed because behind the scenes industrial brewing was looking to standardize the product ever more, filter and pasteurize it and render it easy to handle. They won that fight with bottled beer in the early 1900's. <br /><br />And given the difficulties of serving cask beer at its best, you can argue there was a need for CAMRA before 1960, before 1900, and always, since by its nature the product is delicate and easy to get wrong and needs support to be at its best. One thinks of campaigns (not always successful) to preserve the character of a great British cheese, say, well all the more justified for something as inherent to British history as beer.<br /><br />I think it would muddy the mandate to campaign for other styles of beer and in the end it wouldn't be clear what CAMRA really stands for, thus endangering its future in a way sticking to its knitting would not.<br /><br />That is my view but it is an organizational issue for CAMRA to decide. I take the point about the desirability not to alienate younger members but good communications should be able to address this I'd think.<br /><br />GaryGary Gillmannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-39683320681742797712014-02-17T17:22:06.025+00:002014-02-17T17:22:06.025+00:00someone has added the CAMRA HQ in beer in the eve...someone has added the CAMRA HQ in beer in the evening as "The Bearded Man" pub. ClassCoxynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-37807023880741329412014-02-16T17:32:42.019+00:002014-02-16T17:32:42.019+00:00It is obvious that good cask ale and good keg ale/...It is obvious that good cask ale and good keg ale/lager are going to coexist with each other and that is great news for the consumer.kaiserhoghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18214148630816519490noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-87777986968682108802014-02-16T17:08:39.191+00:002014-02-16T17:08:39.191+00:00I Have not renewed my CAMRA membership, as I live ...I Have not renewed my CAMRA membership, as I live right near their head office, god they are boring and dull in there. I think the war is won, there will be a new war in the future but the current mob will be dead by then. I just think we need a "I hate Brewdog camapaign" not just because of Keg but because I hate their nerdy image, why can't they try to be cool?Coxynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-3196899908767447322014-02-15T19:12:58.435+00:002014-02-15T19:12:58.435+00:00I'm sure Colin V said that they were consideri...I'm sure Colin V said that they were considering more super regional meetings. A real debate on CAMRA core policy would be a good if not potentially explosive topic...Rob Nicholsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14871887147718814739noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-56965555833566168772014-02-15T19:10:02.704+00:002014-02-15T19:10:02.704+00:00There is certainly a niggling undercurrent of disc...There is certainly a niggling undercurrent of discontent that isn't going to go away. It can't be healthy that people aren't allowed to voice their honest personal beliefs in an official context.Curmudgeonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02558747878308766840noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-82279370641025637942014-02-15T18:50:39.331+00:002014-02-15T18:50:39.331+00:00All I know is there is "something" wrong...All I know is there is "something" wrong in all of this. There are too many words been written for it to be just a passing thing.<br /><br />I think we need to get some fun back into the campaign too. It's all a bit serious.Rob Nicholsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14871887147718814739noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-54983185297906808732014-02-14T23:34:40.295+00:002014-02-14T23:34:40.295+00:00"Throw in some free grog alongside enough of ..."Throw in some free grog alongside enough of a buffet to make a free tea and even I would sit through some interminable dry procedural and irrelevant meeting."<br /><br />This seems to work for our AGM's, Cookie. Paul Baileyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09678639237696546268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-23221214184779863272014-02-14T15:14:42.335+00:002014-02-14T15:14:42.335+00:00The authentic/craft lager category is growing. Coo...The authentic/craft lager category is growing. Cooking lager is shrinking. Boo Hoo. Overall beer is shrinking. Whether this is people choosing different products or demographics, I'd opt for demographics though only anecdotaly.<br /><br />I don't see many cooking lager drinkers switching beers, just aging, staying in with the kids, drinking more wine and boozing with their mates less.<br /><br />Cider alcopops appear most popular with the young, more so than craft beer but most I work with that do drink beer would opt for a craft lager if available.<br /><br />verify word : LoveCooking Lagerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02830924433230427226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-47590918512950149032014-02-14T13:05:06.501+00:002014-02-14T13:05:06.501+00:00Well, they might drink lager (although in decreasi...Well, they might drink lager (although in decreasing numbers), or they might drink cider or wine or spirits or alcopops, or they might not drink at all.<br /><br />That last one is becoming an increasingly popular option thanks to 20 years of largely uncontested anti-alcohol propaganda.<br /><br />pynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-45029841748250747752014-02-14T12:58:30.131+00:002014-02-14T12:58:30.131+00:00By and large, the people who don't drink real ...By and large, the people who don't drink real ale drink lager. The main reasons they do this are that it is cold, refreshing and consistent.Curmudgeonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02558747878308766840noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-66919404631293612692014-02-14T12:05:34.152+00:002014-02-14T12:05:34.152+00:00"Why do you think real ale has grown in the l..."Why do you think real ale has grown in the last decade? Just read the Cask Reports"<br /><br />Point of order: Cask Ale sales fell every single year from 1991 to 2011.<br />pynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-163931439911700032014-02-14T11:47:30.995+00:002014-02-14T11:47:30.995+00:00py: No it doesn't. Why do you think real ale h...py: No it doesn't. Why do you think real ale has grown in the last decade? Just read the Cask Reports.<br /><br />Wars are never won. You just get a sort of lull until the next time.<br /><br />Move on to what? Craft Keg?Tandlemanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06804499573827044693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-15813841836831159062014-02-14T11:20:25.167+00:002014-02-14T11:20:25.167+00:00What is CAMRA for anyway? It does a pretty crappy ...What is CAMRA for anyway? It does a pretty crappy job of protecting and promoting real ale frankly, because it appears to have very little understanding of why the people that don't already drink real ale choose not to.<br /><br />Clue: its not because they're all drinking Watney's Red fucking Barrel. That war was won 30 years ago, move on.pynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-86480793786927054582014-02-14T08:50:21.948+00:002014-02-14T08:50:21.948+00:00Sorry for the long reply, but you did ask.
A lot ...Sorry for the long reply, but you did ask.<br /><br />A lot of people don’t know what CAMRA’s main aims are, they see the key campaigns, but those come and go. They know why it was set up, to save real ale, but they don’t know it’s also for promoting cider, foreign beer styles or pubs. They see these things at beer festivals, but they also see raffles and tshirt stalls. In general CAMRA seems too disjointed, and the vocal infighting doesn’t help, especially when cider comes up.<br /><br />So first CAMRA needs to work out and clarify what it is actually for, and then it needs to let people know that. And whatever it decides has to be done nationally and positively. <br /><br />Having something vague, like the definition of Real Ale itself allows for a lot of leeway, and modernising. If a brewer changes the hop type or adds strawberries to their beer, then the loose definition allows it to still be a Real Ale. But if a cider producer adds strawberries to their cider, it’s no longer a Real Cider because the definition is tight. By focussing too tightly the campaign runs the risk of legislating itself into a corner and then in future having to admit it was wrong about something. Which isn’t a bad thing in itself, but having the room to manoeuvre in the first place is better.<br /><br />There’s also some things that just don’t make sense, and a lot of these are around the awards and entry into the good beer guide. Some branches have pub of the month, some pub of the season, some only pub of the year. People travel around more these days than they did back in the 70s, and seeing this disparity between branches makes CAMRA as a whole look a bit amateurish, more like a bunch of separate drinking clubs than a national campaign. Then some branches have a rule that if you’ve won it one year, you can’t be entered the following one, all to give others a chance. They have a chance, they can be better pubs. And it’s the winners of the local branch pub of the year awards that go on to region and national competitions.<br /><br />And if branch awards weren’t bad enough, rules for getting into the Good Beer Guide vary from branch to branch too. Some branches use a voting scheme carried out all year round by any member to guarantee the overall quality of the pub, some branches do visits leading up to the voting (and landlords are also CAMRA members and know when this will be) and at least one branch I was a member of used to automatically put in the previous year’s pubs unless anyone could justify them not being included, a real case of dead man’s shoes.<br /><br />Managing volunteers isn’t easy, I know, I do it for a living. And you have to allow some leeway for them to express themselves and find the best way for them to work. But for things that are important nationally, like Pub of the Year winners going forward to a national competition, or a national pub guide, then the rules absolutely must be decided nationally, and they absolutely must re-enforce CAMRAs focus, whatever that chooses to be. And those rules really need to be publicised and promoted. If CAMRA want publicans to run their pubs in a certain way, and having a high profile national competition that says “This is the best pub” means that CAMRA do want them run like that, then they really need to let the publicans know this.<br /><br />Those really are just two issues, but I think in general CAMRA knows the faults that people see, and in general it’s making attempts to address some of them. Some individual members certainly are doing a lot more than others. But I think that while it’s addressing individual issues, it’s missing out on something important. CAMRA isn’t a collection of smaller issues, it isn’t a collection of local branches. CAMRA is a national campaign, and as such I think that everything needs to be looked at as a whole. I think it needs to step back from what and how it’s currently running, and then rather than addressing individual issues, it needs to readdress itself as a national campaign and come back more focused and more coordinated.<br />Pasteyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05744964811339871436noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-4259116799682350022014-02-13T21:06:52.162+00:002014-02-13T21:06:52.162+00:00Real Ale, real ale, real ale........as opposed to ...Real Ale, real ale, real ale........as opposed to what? un-real ale or possibly imaginary ale or virtual ale? Although Real ale is explained in a dictionary I can't help feeling it sounds a bit daft especially to the younger generations. As you may sense I'm not a CAMRA member but just an ordinary person who enjoys beer and reading this blog. Dismiss at will.<br />Thanks - Ian James.<br />Young at HeartAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com