tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post868748632601167886..comments2024-03-29T07:17:26.082+00:00Comments on Tandleman's Beer Blog: Back to Unclear BeerUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger50125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-69601178419255606752014-01-19T15:46:02.545+00:002014-01-19T15:46:02.545+00:00As an example, the other day I had a pint of a &qu...As an example, the other day I had a pint of a "Gold" beer from a local microbrewery in an ordinary pub, not a specialist beer house. The beer was slightly hazy, although not really returnable. The taste was a touch muddy and yeasty, and not at all clean. I think the two were very closely related.Curmudgeonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02558747878308766840noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-85901788548308622292014-01-19T15:22:53.616+00:002014-01-19T15:22:53.616+00:00I've done another poll here specifically on th...I've done another poll <a href="http://poll.pollcode.com/2844547" rel="nofollow">here</a> specifically on the question of whether customers should be informed at the point of sale if draught beer (whether cask or keg) is intentionally cloudy or hazy.Curmudgeonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02558747878308766840noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-13423465909676503422014-01-18T11:59:58.756+00:002014-01-18T11:59:58.756+00:00Got to agree with that Paul.Got to agree with that Paul.Tandlemanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06804499573827044693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-54568976110195225282014-01-16T20:17:16.327+00:002014-01-16T20:17:16.327+00:00“Work is the curse of the drinking classes”, as Os...“Work is the curse of the drinking classes”, as Oscar Wilde famously said, and with a lot going on at work at the moment, my spare time has been rather limited of late. I’m therefore a bit late in coming to this one, but hopeful not too late to chip in my four pennies worth. <br /><br />Basically my position hasn’t changed since my own post on the subject of cloudy/hazy/murky beer. I am concerned that beer which is intentionally cloudy will give licensees and bar staff the excuse to sell beer that is cloudy for a host of other reasons. These include beer which hasn’t dropped bright; beer which is cloudy because the cask has been disturbed, or beer which is cloudy because the cask is coming to an end, and the lees, and other debris from the bottom of the cask, are being pulled through. The worry is that even when a beer is designed to be cloudy, bar staff will interpret “slightly cloudy”, or “brewed with a slight haze”, as an excuse to serve sub-standard pints.<br /><br />I ought to make it clear I am talking about cask ale here. Craft-keg is another matter, and as craft is still a niche market product (and likely to remain so for the foreseeable future), it doesn’t really enter into the argument, and is not particularly relevant to Tandleman’s poll, and this blog post.<br /><br />I am well aware that other countries have a tradition of producing intentionally cloudy beers, and I have enjoyed many fine examples in Belgium, the Czech Republic and Germany. In these places people know what to expect , and many welcome, and even embrace, the fresh yeasty taste of an unfiltered beer. There is no such tradition here in the UK, and people are naturally suspicious of hazy beer, equating a cloudy pint with beer that has “gone off” or is “past its prime”. Most drinkers will hand a hazy pint back without even tasting it, so those few maverick brewers, intent on pushing hazy beer, really are swimming against the tide. They are also doing a disservice to hard working licensees and cellar-men who put in a lot of effort to ensure the customer ends up with that perfect pint, which is sparklingly clear, nicely conditioned and packed full of flavour.<br /><br />The proponents of intentionally hazy beer talk volumes about “educating” the drinking public. Well good luck to them on that score. Most regular pub-goers don’t know the difference between cask and keg. Few know the differences between ale and lager (apart from the obvious one of colour), and there are many out there who think a pint of Doom Bar represents the very pinnacle of the brewer’s art! Whilst they may have some luck in persuading a few beer geeks that cloudy is best, by and large they are preaching to the converted. The average man, or woman, who frequents their local pub, is NEVER going to be persuaded about the merits of cloudy beer. In trying to do so though, they risk causing untold damage to the image and tradition of cask-conditioned beer!<br />Paul Baileyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09678639237696546268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-28298054157673972522014-01-15T23:02:18.947+00:002014-01-15T23:02:18.947+00:00I suppose it could be, to someone who actively dis...I suppose it could be, to someone who actively disliked bright beer.Rob Sterowskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07870233673933087794noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-3956554066011723942014-01-15T18:29:21.835+00:002014-01-15T18:29:21.835+00:00But is it a term of approval? Can it be?But is it a term of approval? Can it be?Tandlemanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06804499573827044693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-41508378820626297982014-01-15T18:26:14.116+00:002014-01-15T18:26:14.116+00:00Just as an aside, “London murky” was intended to b...Just as an aside, “London murky” was intended to be descriptive, not derogatory. Barmhttp://refreshingbeer.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-28662438167201297022014-01-15T13:57:55.568+00:002014-01-15T13:57:55.568+00:00I'll give it a go, Coxy, but I'm not sure ...I'll give it a go, Coxy, but I'm not sure blue beer is going to sell.StringersBeerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12573068197944669997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-52017279253220380652014-01-15T12:36:34.292+00:002014-01-15T12:36:34.292+00:00I think it would be easier if beer was tested by S...I think it would be easier if beer was tested by Stevie Wonder, then there would be no bias. The things is I always prefer a bright blue sky to a cloudy day, it is in our Psyche.Coxynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-10647291720138199892014-01-15T10:07:23.762+00:002014-01-15T10:07:23.762+00:00Well if it was just me thinking it, you might be r...Well if it was just me thinking it, you might be right. But there's some pretty good beery folks that agree with me.<br /><br />Sitting where you are, I don't doubt it seems like that, but thinking of some of the photos of really cloudy beer you have published, well I'm not so sure. In fact I'd say that lots of beer that is hazy/murky/cloudy is not caused by intent, but by poor brewing skills. Publicans like Jeff Bell have mentioned this and the term London Murky, isn't I think, one of endearment.<br /><br />While new wave keg causes little or no confusion if cloudy, I believe cask beer is different and it does cause confusion. It is the confusion that most bothers me, though independently, the case for cloudy beer tasting better is far from proven.<br /><br />You are clearly not a fan of the "thin end of the wedge" argument. I am. If cloudy/hazy/murky cask becomes common, it blurs a line. <br /><br />And the accusation of paranoid fantasy is like the "beer is better with nowt taken out" argument, quite unproven. <br /><br />Tandlemanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06804499573827044693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-73674709631885056842014-01-15T09:32:20.532+00:002014-01-15T09:32:20.532+00:00"Extrapolate to the not so far off future ......"Extrapolate to the not so far off future ... Why brew good beer when bad will do just as well?"<br /><br />Isn't this the same argument you used when craft keg started to appear -- why would any brewer bother with cask when people are prepared to drink easier and more profitable keg beer?<br /><br />Seems like a bit of an unfounded paranoid fantasy to me. I think you already know the British beer market doesn't work like this.The Beer Nuthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14105708522526153528noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-62373800603816087032014-01-15T07:40:27.027+00:002014-01-15T07:40:27.027+00:00PS: A slight haze is rarely a problem. That's...PS: A slight haze is rarely a problem. That's not my worry.Tandlemanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06804499573827044693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-49677234741819266922014-01-15T07:38:52.539+00:002014-01-15T07:38:52.539+00:00DavidS: I rather think it is more complex than tha...DavidS: I rather think it is more complex than that. It has taken years to get to a point where people could say that they expect a clear pint and one that isn't has a fault in some way. That is being undone. <br /><br />Nothing wrong with innovation, but your hope that good pubs won't put on bad beer is a pious one. They may not know.<br /><br />It is a myth that in good pubs you get staff that know a lot about how beer should taste. particularly when it is "different". Tandlemanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06804499573827044693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-34673731915748496282014-01-15T00:43:48.777+00:002014-01-15T00:43:48.777+00:00" Why brew good beer when bad will do just as..." Why brew good beer when bad will do just as well? Sadly because not enough know bad beer from good."<br /><br />Surely we should aim to improve standards by encouraging punters to take more of an interest in what they're drinking and pubs to take more pride in what they're serving, then, not by moaning at people who're actually trying to improve (in their view) what they're offering for not catering to the lowest common denominator?<br /><br />For what it's worth, I've had the "that's what it's supposed to taste like" argument a few times, and their point has normally been simply that they've already got my money and don't care about my repeat custom. By and large pubs that care enough to be aware of unfined beer (and sour beer and so on) also care enough to apologize and replace it if it's off.DavidSnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-57245302226728671202014-01-15T00:08:39.706+00:002014-01-15T00:08:39.706+00:00Phil and JJ. How refreshing to see that you two h...Phil and JJ. How refreshing to see that you two have actually applied some intellectual rigour to this.<br /><br />But it doesn't go far enough. Extrapolate to the not so far off future. No-one will be able to challenge bad beer with confidence. Standards will fall. Why brew good beer when bad will do just as well? Sadly because not enough know bad beer from good.<br /><br />Looking on the er.. bright side. Clean, clear beer with flavour will always have a market. We just need to stand up for it. Cloudy beer does no-one any favours. <br /><br />Tandlemanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06804499573827044693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-5401935478164302932014-01-14T23:34:43.926+00:002014-01-14T23:34:43.926+00:00Thanks, jesusjohn - interesting that the only pers...Thanks, jesusjohn - interesting that the only person picking up on my point is somebody who's had the exact same experience (with the same brewer's beer)!<br /><br />I know that some beers are brewed to be served hazy. I know that some beers, served hazy, are top-quality beers - I've had 'em. My problem is that if you tell some bar staff "this one's meant to be hazy" they won't bother avoiding the <b>wrong kind</b> of haze/cloud/murk/whatever you want to call it - and the punter can end up with a pint of yeast porridge and no possibility of complaining about it ("it's <b>meant</b> to be cloudy, it says so right there").<br /><br />Nothing to do with wanting all beer to look the same. Everything to do with wanting all beer to be served in good condition, and knowing that cloud in beer is sometimes a sign of bad condition - even in beer that's meant to be hazy.Philhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07009879034507926661noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-21409220241682410902014-01-14T23:30:58.284+00:002014-01-14T23:30:58.284+00:00But you got a confusing pint John. One you had no ...But you got a confusing pint John. One you had no confidence in and one you weren't on solid ground with. That's what I'm getting at really. The odd great beet and loads of..... well what?Tandlemanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06804499573827044693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-9101703064258012202014-01-14T23:27:43.858+00:002014-01-14T23:27:43.858+00:00And almost all such beer in Germany is dreadful. W...And almost all such beer in Germany is dreadful. Weizen possibility excepted.Tandlemanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06804499573827044693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-40704735528945383002014-01-14T23:25:55.803+00:002014-01-14T23:25:55.803+00:00Or that most wouldn't know a good beer if it b...Or that most wouldn't know a good beer if it bit them in the arse? Most cloudy beer is full of trub and brewing faults.Tandlemanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06804499573827044693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-47803398494868108192014-01-14T22:21:07.130+00:002014-01-14T22:21:07.130+00:00As Phil has written, it does make it more difficul...As Phil has written, it does make it more difficult to take back a pint if it's "meant" to have a haze if it isn't right.<br /><br />I had a pint of unfined Moor beer recently - a brewery I rate* - and it was soupy and green (that's to say I think it was rushed on under-conditioned; I don't think it was the end of the barrel).<br /><br />But I ran through the likely scenario with the barkeep ("Oh, we've had this a bit - you do know it's *meant* to be cloudy...") and just thought "sod it".<br /><br />* My experience of unfined cask Moor in standout pubs is that, properly conditioned, you'll get a light haze, but not full-on murk.John Westhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15471796457374078158noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-81651568745021029062014-01-14T21:44:57.332+00:002014-01-14T21:44:57.332+00:00OK, now you've specified that you mean British...OK, now you've specified that you mean British cask beer, that's tightened it up a bit. I can think of several beer styles where cloudiness is expected, but none of them are British and none are cask ales. <br /><br />If a cask ale is hazy, I'd like to be advised ahead of time. If the cellar staff know their stuff and they think it is both hazy and perfectly drinkable (as I've often seen at beer festivals), then I'm usually willing to give it a punt. <br /><br />With keg and craft stuff, it's a bit harder. There's been a fashion for unfiltered cloudy beers (weiss, naturtrub, etc.) in Germany for some years now, even unfiltered Pils, and I can easily see that transferring to some UK and US brewers. Bryan the Beervikinghttp://beerviking.netnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-88632348061114629862014-01-14T20:52:33.026+00:002014-01-14T20:52:33.026+00:00I've had plenty of hazy pints that taste fresh...I've had plenty of hazy pints that taste fresh and great and just as many clear pints that taste like complete crap.<br /><br />You should really judge a pint by how it tastes, not how it looks. This is probably easier for younger beer drinkers that haven't had the "cloudy beer is off beer" line drilled into them.<br />pyonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-91163749709567148322014-01-14T19:58:44.566+00:002014-01-14T19:58:44.566+00:00I voted for "As long as it tastes OK", b...I voted for "As long as it tastes OK", but I wanted to vote for a few here, though not necessarily in an indecisive way as I felt those choices were all valid as well("depends" and "warned").<br /><br />But it has to come back to taste. I've produced myself and tried commercial beers that are far from star bright, but taste great - that's the point isn't it? We drink beer to enjoy its taste, no? We'd all like our beer to be wonderfully clear and bright, but give me a pint of hazy but fresh, great tasting beer and I'm not going to turn it down flat without at least trying it. Maybe it's the homebrewer in me? <br /><br /><br />[A little off topic for the intended poll, but still beer, and which I find more of an irritation: bottle conditioned beers with a half inch of yeast sediment waiting to turn into a snowstorm. No, no, no.]<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Mehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04244432915659177250noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-69173413980462520662014-01-14T19:40:42.865+00:002014-01-14T19:40:42.865+00:00Firstly I haven't answered the poll. I don'...Firstly I haven't answered the poll. I don't agree with the leading questions and negative wording.<br /><br />Some beer is supposed to be clear, some is supposed to be cloudy. Beer that is supposed to be cloudy should a) never be described as murky and b) be sold as such with relevant information available from the staff or on the pumpclip.<br /><br />Beer that is supposed to be clear should never be sold by an establishment when it isn't clear.<br /><br />Deliberately cloudy beer may come from a bottle, a can, a cask or a keg in much the same way as clear beer.<br /><br />The crux of the problem with this poll is that you are only out to get results which fit your narrow minded view of what a pint should be. Thankfully not everybodies idea of what a pint should be is the same as yours, or mine for that matter, as the world of beer would be a far duller place.<br />Mitchel Adamshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01554029955104122522noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-68366648515992547282014-01-14T19:02:45.038+00:002014-01-14T19:02:45.038+00:00murkiness isnt the issue if thats they way it was ...murkiness isnt the issue if thats they way it was intended to be served.<br /><br />But problem is how am I supposed to know,pumpclips dont help if the beers served from a tap room, so I might make an educated guess, but plenty of beers claiming to be wheat/hefeweizen style beers, are often served completely clear (again how do I know that isnt intentional) and as I dont store the many thousands of potential beers that could be on offer in any pub in the UK at one time and how they are meant to look ideally in some kind of mind palace, Im sort of relying on the staff behind the bar serving it to know when they are serving a complete pint of drek (as I encountered for about the 4th time already this year at the weekend) or a genuine cloudy beer.<br /><br />stop serving pints of rubbish cloudy beer, people might be a bit happier when presented with it to drink.Stonohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02656315721111561414noreply@blogger.com