tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post2726345416599564513..comments2024-03-29T07:17:26.082+00:00Comments on Tandleman's Beer Blog: The Cost of Craft KegUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger74125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-12600646688951792902013-03-19T09:27:47.728+00:002013-03-19T09:27:47.728+00:00The keg mark up is interesting, from other blogs k...The keg mark up is interesting, from other blogs key keg costs about 20p a pint. Pub mark up on that round here results in 60p to a pound. That said my local would have probably had swb cask on at a premium in first place, their price structure it could be closer to 4 cask, 460 keg which seems fairer. Certainly if both available id try together. Though in a world where magic rock dark arts or hawkshead nzpa on cask cost under 4 im not paying over a fiver for anything on keg (ok anything that's under 7%) steve thackhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09340105168418049281noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-61759147087249509052013-03-14T19:39:22.529+00:002013-03-14T19:39:22.529+00:00Delicious and sensibly priced is a winning formula...Delicious and sensibly priced is a winning formula for me. In fact what more could one ask?Tandlemanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06804499573827044693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-89854874032407240182013-03-14T19:38:52.293+00:002013-03-14T19:38:52.293+00:00Delicious and sensibly priced is a winning formula...Delicious and sensibly priced is a winning formula for me. In fact what more could one ask?Tandlemanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06804499573827044693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-49889074472329262742013-03-14T18:40:51.276+00:002013-03-14T18:40:51.276+00:00@birkonian ! I did not say say I charge the '...@birkonian ! I did not say say <b>I</b> charge the 'what the market will stand' or 'the most [I] can' <br /><br />I was merely remarking on the logic of those that do. And surprised at the surprise shown by some commentors.<br /><br />I suggest you re-read above.<br /><br />All <b>our</b> pricing <b>is</b> based on a cost plus model. Plus we refer to the prices offered by our near competitors. This generally means our beers are pretty much competitive with most of our neighbours. <br /><br />Other brewers use other pricing strategies - even valuing their "talent" as some kinda ethical justification for what some would call gouging. <br /><br />We don't do that. But that's up to them. <br /><br />It's business, and when one has investors or shareholders it's a likely a requirement that you should maximise their return. Thats's the way it is. Don't like it? Don't pay it.<br /><br /><i>Our delicious, sensibly priced beers are available locally and (somewhat) nationally</i><br /><br />Thank you.<br />StringersBeerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12573068197944669997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-61858903620881561522013-03-14T15:12:39.761+00:002013-03-14T15:12:39.761+00:00I'll buy kegged beer if its from a brewery who...I'll buy kegged beer if its from a brewery who know how to keg beer. Thornbridge and Brewdog seem to have it cracked Magic Rock, Kernel, Brodies and Dark Star get it right most of the time. But I have had some British kegged beer that is pretty lifeless. One in particular is Red Willow, I really enjoy their beer from cask and I've known Toby since before he started the brewery but his kegged beer is usually rather flat. I get the impression small breweries are racking to key-kegs the same as they would a cask and not fully understanding the difference in the pressure required. I'm not expert but I resent buying keg beer for more that isn't correctly conditioned over a superior cask.<br /><br />I do think that keg works better for certain beers and in particular big IPAs. Keg are also good for places that either have too many beers on and don't turn them over or maybe a bit quiet in the week. To many times I've found a stronger beer on cask to be old and tired because it been sat on the bar for a week or two. Sadly this is the casual beer drinker is a bit fearful of a beer over 5%. I see this first hand in my local pub all the time. Lots of commuters and 28 draught beers, people rarely stray from a close match to their regular pint. The other day a bloke at the bar said:<br />"Is Lord Marples on?"<br />Barman: "No"<br />"What have you got that's like Lord Marples?"<br />"Buxton Moor Top?" (nothing like it)<br />"Go on I'll have a pint".Rob Derbyshirehttp://hopzine.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-41266187425671965012013-03-14T10:30:50.858+00:002013-03-14T10:30:50.858+00:00Its like supermarket policy where they randomly pu...Its like supermarket policy where they randomly put the prices up on a selection of goods and see if anyone notices. Most of the time, no-one does because we don't all walk around with a reference point in our head for how much a 300g bag of walnuts etc should cost. <br /><br />I guess a lot of people order a pint in a large round and never even notice how extortionate it was, and if they do, its too late anyway.<br /><br />I'd probably pay 50p extra for craft keg just for the novelty factor seeing as you don't get that kind of thing round these parts. Limited supply = higher prices.py0noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-56119756708973418852013-03-14T10:05:33.775+00:002013-03-14T10:05:33.775+00:00It's running this one so I'll ask a questi...It's running this one so I'll ask a question. I understand the beer geeks will buy both to compare and pay any amount to do so. That's your choice and I get what you get out of it. A completeness similar to a collector and belief you better understand beer. Understood.<br /><br />I'm not that bothered about the difference and if I was waiting for a train I would have done what Tandy did and bought the cheaper one and I like chill & fizz.<br /><br />If you don't like chill and fizz I guess you'd buy the cheaper one too.<br /><br />Anyone that likes chill and fizz that would buy it at £1.50 a pint more, or would you say buggar it and buy the cheaper one?<br /><br />I know producers can justify the cost but I want to know whether any drinker thinks it is worth the extra £1.50<br /><br /><br />Cooking Lagerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02830924433230427226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-58019787403252561952013-03-14T10:02:07.220+00:002013-03-14T10:02:07.220+00:00Keykegs aren't a panacea. I think Dave Bailey...Keykegs aren't a panacea. I think Dave Bailey wrote about that in his blog. He knows more about them them me and they ain't trouble free.<br /><br />I don't mind either way, but my point about gazing longingly in the window at things you can't afford stands.Tandlemanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06804499573827044693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-69912968803057497862013-03-14T10:01:05.685+00:002013-03-14T10:01:05.685+00:00"What many people on this thread have not dis..."What many people on this thread have not discussed is the fact that many of these breweries who are releasing KeyKegs cannot afford to sink the money in to re-usable stainless steel kegs (a huge investment), a keg filler and the infrastructure to distribute and then return them."<br /><br />Thats an interesting point, and one which backs up my assertion that a 1000 strong microbrewery market structure might be appropriate for cask beer, its not sustainable for craft keg. <br /><br />The breweries that do take the plunge and invest in proper kegging kit will be able to sell their beer 20% cheaper than a brewery relying on keykeg - and if the beer is otherwise similar in style and quality, 20% lower distribution costs is a massive competitive advantage.<br /><br />I predict the market will settle down into the multiple cask ale and bottled beer breweries we have now, plus a mixture of 5-10 of the bigger craft keg breweries (Brewdog, Thornbridge, ?) who have invested in a kegging faciltity and got distribution rights to a variety of pubs and bars, and probably a load of pseudo-craft from MNCs jumping on the bandwagon that may or may not be any good but will definitely make Pete Brown flip his lid.py0noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-58525202889939112682013-03-14T09:48:47.523+00:002013-03-14T09:48:47.523+00:00Tandleman
I dont blame CAMRA for forcing people t...Tandleman<br /><br />I dont blame CAMRA for forcing people to sell enough beer. I blame CAMRA for rejecting a perfectly legitimate dispensing method which they allow for breweries outside teh UK but not within.<br /><br />The thing is to fill KeyKegs you don't need a whole heap of technology but why buy them in bulk (which would save money and drive down costs) when they are viewed with such suspision which is mainly driven by CAMRA. <br /><br />Believe it or not our reasoning behind casks not being always being the best thing for beer probably isn't that different. BrewLabBloxnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-32473244717968442602013-03-14T09:32:09.714+00:002013-03-14T09:32:09.714+00:00"which beers are better in keg form than thei...<i>"which beers are better in keg form than their cask version?"</i><br />Clotworthy Dobbin is the one that always springs to mind for me. It has a subtle Cascade finish that just gets buried when served from the cask. Galway Hooker is another: lots of lovely Saaz and Cascade on keg; just sweet and worty on cask.<br /><br /><i>if you try a beer in keg form and like it imagine how much better a cask version would be. </i><br />Or... if you have the opportunity to try a beer on keg and cask, taste them both and put some empiricism behind your imaginings.The Beer Nuthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14105708522526153528noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-69807216135926485382013-03-14T09:25:06.237+00:002013-03-14T09:25:06.237+00:00why would you buy a keg version of a perfectly ser...<i>why would you buy a keg version of a perfectly served cask version?</i><br /><br />As has been said before, a lot of people prefer beer that is cooler and fizzier than standard real ale. You may disagree, especially if the real ale is in perfect condition, but that demand is undoubtedly there.Curmudgeonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02558747878308766840noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-62488329323581101982013-03-14T09:15:10.090+00:002013-03-14T09:15:10.090+00:00Brewlabblox
" However you can also argue tha...Brewlabblox<br /><br />" However you can also argue that in order to sell enough beer they have to sell casks and for that I blame CAMRA."<br /><br />You blame CAMRA for forcing breweries to sell enough beer? Odd. It strikes me that if you can't afford the technology, you shouldn't be in the game. If you aren't in that game, you sell as good cask beer as you can.<br /><br />We all wish we could do things beyond our means, but to blame CAMRA for that inability is illogical.<br /><br />I do agree though that cask isn't the best thing for some beers, but my reasons are probably a lot different to yours.Tandlemanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06804499573827044693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-74464508628023837062013-03-14T08:58:55.952+00:002013-03-14T08:58:55.952+00:00@realalemike Why is a cask version always better? ...@realalemike Why is a cask version always better? In my opinion there are plenty of beers that are far superior served from a cask however there are just as many that I believe suit being served from a keg. Imperial IPA's generally as a style suit the slightly higher carbonation and cooler temperature.<br /><br />What many people on this thread have not discussed is the fact that many of these breweries who are releasing KeyKegs cannot afford to sink the money in to re-usable stainless steel kegs (a huge investment), a keg filler and the infrastructure to distribute and then return them. <br /><br />I agree with @Brother Logic that if these breweries believe that their beer is better in keg they shouldn't be releasing casks. However you can also argue that in order to sell enough beer they have to sell casks and for that I blame CAMRA. I know a lot of microbrewers who would prefer to serve their beer keg-conditioned in a KeyKeg or similar device. (I'd like to remind everyone that there is no direct gas-beer interaction with KeyKegs and that they protect against oxidation unlike a cask) However they are unable to do so as they would not be able to get their beer into CAMRA beer festivals.<br /><br />Ultimately the price difference between keg and cask is unsustainable and as the successful breweries grow they will be able to drop their prices. BrewLabBloxnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-83914651956183434372013-03-14T07:19:33.504+00:002013-03-14T07:19:33.504+00:00why would you buy a keg version of a perfectly ser...why would you buy a keg version of a perfectly served cask version-someone please answer the simple question "which beers are better in keg form than their cask version?". It appears to be about gimmickry and trendiness with the associated hike in price that goes with such trendiness. If I drink beer abroad I'll enjoy it and accept that it's keg as that's how it's served there-in this country cask is the best method of dispense-if you try a beer in keg form and like it imagine how much better a cask version would be.realalemikenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-14784761736062206022013-03-13T23:12:34.165+00:002013-03-13T23:12:34.165+00:00Ah come on we'd all do the same. You'd be ...Ah come on we'd all do the same. You'd be stupid not to maximise your profits.<br /><br />Its up to consumers to demand lower prices and other competitors to cater to our demands and bring down the costs.<br /><br />py0noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-31155475297319770112013-03-13T23:05:04.786+00:002013-03-13T23:05:04.786+00:00Stringers has explained in numerous posts on this ...Stringers has explained in numerous posts on this thread why many people are wary of 'craft beer'. He states that he charges the 'what the market will stand' or 'the most he can' rather than setting a price based on cost of production plus a readonable profit margin. He may call it capitalism, I call it fleecing the gullible/unwary. I'll happily pay a premium for a superior product, but most craft keg beers are just a bit fizzier and colder, not better. I'm also now that bit less inclined to buy a pint of Stringer's cask beers during my summer visits to Cumbria.Birkonianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02797631050700297107noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-56362758332697590872013-03-13T21:49:48.111+00:002013-03-13T21:49:48.111+00:00Ok, but my point was/is that monopolistic competit...Ok, but my point was/is that monopolistic competition is notoriously difficult to sustain in the long run. As long as you are making supernormal profits, there will always be someone willing to come along and just slightly undercut you. Its one thing being able to charge £5 for a pint of 5.5% keg IPA made with new world hops now when the only competition is a sweetcorn flavoured lager and a warm pint of brown bitter, but in a few years time when 100s of breweries are pumping out near identical beer, you might find it a bit tougher persuading the punters that your pint is still worth £1.50 more than that near identical Punk-alike beer on the next font.<br /><br />Presumably you can simply move on to flogging Saisons or Smoked Porters or Oak Aged Imperial Stouts to make the difference stick, but that will only last for so long.py0noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-31414053623000893772013-03-13T21:42:19.104+00:002013-03-13T21:42:19.104+00:00The price discrepency, to me, is secondary but any...The price discrepency, to me, is secondary but any craft brewery releasing both a keg and a cask version of the same beer is doing it wrong - i.e. if the keg version is supposed to be superior, why are they releasing an inferior (cask) version too. And vice versa. Once again - you have to demonstrate craft to play the craft card.Brother Logichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10197469348962494614noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-73177412109660579722013-03-13T21:15:27.469+00:002013-03-13T21:15:27.469+00:00@py0 Yes I'm assuming non-perfect competition....@py0 Yes I'm assuming non-perfect competition. Product differentiation is what it's all about. That's entirely what makes this possible.StringersBeerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12573068197944669997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-75674137206244531972013-03-13T21:03:53.902+00:002013-03-13T21:03:53.902+00:00Stono. You are, I fear, missing the point. It isn...Stono. You are, I fear, missing the point. It isnt about London prices ss such. And why anyone would prefer the Bree Louise for cask is beyond me.Tandlemanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06804499573827044693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-25685011703077205682013-03-13T20:49:45.986+00:002013-03-13T20:49:45.986+00:00yikes, talkative subject. IME the ET is reasonably...yikes, talkative subject. IME the ET is reasonably priced for cask, so Im always wary using it for London price comparisons as its nearer the mean Im used to paying in the SE, whereas most places in London add a your drinking in London tax of at least 50p extra,+ another 50p if your in some craft bars ;)<br /><br />the thing is if you were the atypical casketeer looking for a drink youd probably have gone to the Bree Louise instead, the cask choice is wider and its as near the station. So are the prices more about who the ET are competing with than a price difference in keg and cask so much, I mean I always note Im the only one drinking cask in there, everyone else is on bottles or keg. and I say that also bearing in mind theres a Fullers pub not that far away down the Euston Road where I think I paid £4.50 for a Bengal Lancer once as well.(shrugs shoulders) thats London for you !!(/shrugs)Stonohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02656315721111561414noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-36725519393769334592013-03-13T20:32:42.248+00:002013-03-13T20:32:42.248+00:00geordiemanc Sorry. Which had the inferior taste?geordiemanc Sorry. Which had the inferior taste?Tandlemanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06804499573827044693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-22839641188652664392013-03-13T20:13:59.424+00:002013-03-13T20:13:59.424+00:00Is it a coincidence that where you have the warmes...<i>Is it a coincidence that where you have the warmest cask beer - London that is - you have the biggest growth in keg craft?</i><br /><br />Not to mention the flattest. And beer in the south-east generally has a tendency to be brown, un-hoppy, not particularly malty and generally rather dull. (Inland, at least - things do perk up when you approach the coast, be it Southwold or Lewes.) And Scotland has many fine qualities, but exciting cask ale hasn't historically been one of them.<br /><br />Could it be that craft keg only took hold because people outside the North-West weren't getting enough of the good stuff?Philhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07009879034507926661noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-36313997127446727542013-03-13T20:08:27.578+00:002013-03-13T20:08:27.578+00:00The Knott, Manchester has Magic Rock High Wire in ...The Knott, Manchester has Magic Rock High Wire in both forms at the weekend. If I recall correctly the prices were £3.30 & £4.50 or thereabouts. <br /><br />The manager gave us a sample of each for a quick taste test. They were clearly the same beer - one had more flavour than the other, one was warmer than the other, one was more rounded, less sharp than the other.<br /><br />With both the price differential and the inferior taste, it's no surprise that the cask will have sold out within a day. The keg will probably still be there this weekend.GeordieManchttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03926305998637585626noreply@blogger.com