tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post3733364226151046929..comments2024-03-29T07:17:26.082+00:00Comments on Tandleman's Beer Blog: Craft Definition by BrewDogUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger71125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-45792511029767374382014-04-06T13:14:24.750+01:002014-04-06T13:14:24.750+01:00Thank you so much for the great beer info! We are...Thank you so much for the great beer info! We are also running a beer and fitness website, you might want to check out, some very cool info there! Thanks! www.beerandbody.combeer body, LLChttp://www.beerandbody.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-57788948762119484222014-03-30T09:03:25.773+01:002014-03-30T09:03:25.773+01:00The Brewdog point one 'everything must be brew...The Brewdog point one 'everything must be brewed at original gravity' is ostensibly to rule out the common practice among major breweries of brewing at high gravity and then diluting to sales gravity just before packaging. But what if this practice became widespread in micros? It's easy to imagine a small 5 barrel plant thinking "hey, after the fermentation has died down I could top up the headspace in the tank and get more beer from my small plant" At the sort of gravities for your ordinary bitter, this wouldn't even necessarily require the original gravity of the wort to be very high (certainly much lower than the gravities BD brews at for it's high ABV beers). Plenty of micros already 'liquor up' at the end of the boil, how is liquoring up at the end of fermentation any worse? Is it bad for the product? no. Is it damaging for the yeast? not at the gravities that micros would do it at. So the question is, what is it supposed to be about brewing at higher than sales gravity makes<br />this practice a craft beer no no? I can't see anything bad with it except that it is what the major breweries all uniformly do. But it is such a simple thing there's nothing stopping micros doing it, and who is to say it wasn't even done in the olden days?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-72493585616494899702014-03-16T18:20:46.917+00:002014-03-16T18:20:46.917+00:00The comment from Dan of BD is interesting. The arg...The comment from Dan of BD is interesting. The argument seems to be that 'craft' is <b>either</b> meaningless marketing fluff (so we have Camden craft beer, Thwaites' craft beer, Wychwood craft beer, Carling craft beer) <b>or</b> it's tightly defined in a way that will protect the 'brand'.<br /><br />What this misses out is a third possibility, which is that 'craft' actually means something: there is a real divide between brewers turning out the same old stuff and brewers trying new and different ideas, just as there's a real divide between megacorp breweries (like the one Stuart Howe works for) and independents (like Samuel Smith's), or between breweries producing mainly cask (like Hyde's) and those producing mainly keg (like BrewDog). And all of those divisions will still be a reality - and beer drinkers, many of whom aren't mugs, will still be able to spot them - irrespective of what anyone is calling 'craft', or why.<br /><br />Put it this way: if the phenomenon called 'craft beer' is a reality, it doesn't matter whether anyone calls it 'craft beer' or not. And if it's not a reality, who cares what anyone calls it?Philhttp://ohgoodale.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-49344050822143350682014-03-15T22:30:27.330+00:002014-03-15T22:30:27.330+00:00Yay! and that's the set! see hereYay! and that's the set! <a href="http://stringersbeer.blogspot.co.uk/2012/01/craft-oh-for-goodness-sake-2.html" rel="nofollow">see here</a>StringersBeerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12573068197944669997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-61499678067451310812014-03-15T19:47:56.251+00:002014-03-15T19:47:56.251+00:00just had a moment of clarity, who the hell gives a...just had a moment of clarity, who the hell gives a fuck, there are much more important things than what is craft beer, I am embarrassed that I have contributed to this. Please please never mention this again, it is more boring than shitty sparkler conversationscoxnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-2447810068637249592014-03-14T17:23:15.727+00:002014-03-14T17:23:15.727+00:00It's not me that's inventing anything. Or...It's not me that's inventing anything. Originally, microbrewery usually referred to the size of the operation. In recent years we've seen the term used to describe small plants, or small brands, regardless of their ownership. Personally, I'm happy with micro-brewery meaning micro-capacity. That seems meaningful to me. A brewery is a place, a machine, that brews beer. I don't have a problem with a large brewing concern having a small plant (or small brands) in their portfolio. I'm certain it enables the production of beers that they wouldn't otherwise be able to make.<br /><br />I'm not, however, a micro-brewer. I'm not tall, mind, but I'm just a brewer. We own a microbrewery, but then so do Thwaites, Brains & Coors, and many more.<br /><br />However, I get to do things with my microbrewery that other brewers, working with larger concerns, may find it hard to make a business case for. <br /><br />Thing is, words change their meaning, things drift and extend. New ways of looking at things evolve. You can fight it if you like, but it's uphill.StringersBeerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12573068197944669997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-86498994346184721192014-03-14T16:53:40.319+00:002014-03-14T16:53:40.319+00:00I'm saying a brewery is either a seperate, ind...I'm saying a brewery is either a seperate, independent brewery or it is not, in which case it is simply part of a larger brewery.<br /><br />You seem to be inventing this concept of a brewery that is simultaneously separate but not independent. Thats a contradiction in terms, surely?pynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-79581508652725559752014-03-14T16:44:39.840+00:002014-03-14T16:44:39.840+00:00Well, py, since you seem to hold that being (entir...Well, py, since you seem to hold that being (entirely or somewhat) owned by another entity somehow magically stops a brewery being a brewery it's difficult to think of an answer that would satisfy you. Perhaps someone else would have a stab.StringersBeerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12573068197944669997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-11758345535671192282014-03-14T16:39:55.380+00:002014-03-14T16:39:55.380+00:00DavidS - yes that is what I meant. I still think t...DavidS - yes that is what I meant. I still think that we're basically reinventing the wheel here when the term "microbrewery" already covers the bases. What is the difference between a craft brewery and a microbrewery?pynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-51086182051262353772014-03-14T16:39:16.713+00:002014-03-14T16:39:16.713+00:00Fulica americana, or any coot, does not quack like...<i>Fulica americana</i>, or any coot, does <b>not</b> quack like a duck.StringersBeerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12573068197944669997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-7788720838950823872014-03-14T16:32:58.213+00:002014-03-14T16:32:58.213+00:00Oops. Craft. See what I mean!Oops. Craft. See what I mean!Tandlemanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06804499573827044693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-91804416188321244122014-03-14T16:31:32.523+00:002014-03-14T16:31:32.523+00:00Goodness. I leave you all alone for a few hours an...Goodness. I leave you all alone for a few hours and find you squabbling about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.<br /><br />Problem is, you are all a bit right, but no-one is completely right. Even py which is unheard of. Even if I amalgamated all the right bits, it wouldn't do for some. Or any probably. The thing is though that whatever craft is or isn't, the genie is out of the bottle and he ain't going back in any time soon.<br /><br />Everyone will continue to know craft when they see it, but all will, or already have defined it in their own terms. So my craft isn't your craft and almost certainly not BrewDog's.<br /><br />So on that note as soon as E has brought in some more bacon for me - that is - finished her work for today, I'm off for a pint of Lees. Craft? Dunno. It isn't keg, so maybe not. Or maybe on some other grounds. Who knows? Or is Lees Golden Original Lager keg?<br /><br />It's all too hard.Tandlemanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06804499573827044693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-36723873904074817142014-03-14T16:11:27.650+00:002014-03-14T16:11:27.650+00:00not if it's an american coot or waterfowl it&#...not if it's an american coot or waterfowl it's not. Jeez the ornithological awareness of beer geeks ain't what it was.<br /><br />Time was, you could talk to a beer geek in the a beer garden and they could tell a mallard from a muscovy by it's quack, and then tell you the train engine specs from the sound of a distant choo choo all whilst telling you what was drinking well today.<br /><br />Cooking Lagerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02830924433230427226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-20112301609195552962014-03-14T15:59:33.171+00:002014-03-14T15:59:33.171+00:00DavidS, it's relevant because py iss asserting...DavidS, it's relevant because py iss asserting the craft/micro identity so that we wouldn't need a new word. And as to whether a small non-independent brewery is a brewery, if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, is marketed like a duck, it's a bleeding duck. StringersBeerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12573068197944669997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-40713558616059258082014-03-14T15:52:14.161+00:002014-03-14T15:52:14.161+00:00I think py's argument is that all breweries, l...I think py's argument is that all breweries, large or small, are independent, because the point at which they stop being independent is the point at which they stop being distinct breweries.<br /><br />I'm not sure whether this is actually the case or not, but it's essentially irrelevant hairsplitting over semantics, so I'm not sure why it's turned into such an issue.DavidSnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-2377114004929955172014-03-14T15:44:08.324+00:002014-03-14T15:44:08.324+00:00@py, No. Otherwise there could be no large indepen...@py, No. Otherwise there could be no large independent brewery. For if independent -> small, that would be a "small, large" brewery. Which is a contradiction.StringersBeerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12573068197944669997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-7155220723542490692014-03-14T15:40:47.904+00:002014-03-14T15:40:47.904+00:00Cookie, I could pull the shutters down tomorrow an...Cookie, I could pull the shutters down tomorrow and make no money. That's how free I am. StringersBeerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12573068197944669997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-30928913828014183852014-03-14T15:12:57.612+00:002014-03-14T15:12:57.612+00:00@Stringer the freedom you describe is theoretical,...@Stringer the freedom you describe is theoretical, not practical. A business really does not have the freedom to make less money. <br /><br />If I had employees I would feel a sense of responsibility towards them. Sure I am free to refuse business lose money and sack them but in fact I am not really free.<br /><br />My actions are dictated by my values. I would take the tesco contract to keep the lads on the line in work.<br /><br />I guess we all like to think we are free, but having choices is not the same as being free and independent.<br /><br />Most people would not actually want to be free. They actually like the burden and prison of the wife, kids, in laws.Cooking Lagerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02830924433230427226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-17581999152773629462014-03-14T14:55:27.304+00:002014-03-14T14:55:27.304+00:00A microbrewery isn't a microbrewery if it is j...A microbrewery isn't a microbrewery if it is just part of a macrobrewery. <br /><br />Half a cow is not a small cow.<br /><br />A small non-independent brewery is not a small brewery, it is a subset of a large brewery.<br /><br />"small, independent" is tautological.pynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-2195124239587305712014-03-14T14:50:01.034+00:002014-03-14T14:50:01.034+00:00@cookie, the pooches could if they wished stop doi...@cookie, the pooches could if they wished stop doing business w/ supermarkets without being fired or kicked off the board. An independent has to make money for sure, but is free(er) to decide how much money to make and who to deal with. If they so choose.StringersBeerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12573068197944669997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-69006297242355439182014-03-14T14:46:54.428+00:002014-03-14T14:46:54.428+00:00"Not completely owned and controlled by anoth..."Not completely owned and controlled by another company" is the basic point. The issue being that some large tedious national or multinational brewer might well be aware that some people would rather support a smaller brewery, and set up a separate "microbrewery" under a different name while still controlling the output and (for instance) keeping the range as small and unadventurous as possible to maximize profit margins.<br /><br />In any case, size isn't really the point so much as just knowing who you're dealing with so you can make a decision based on that. There are some fairly mediocre small breweries who I wouldn't go out of my way to support, and some excellent largeish ones who I would.<br /><br />And as I keep saying, I don't think that having some sort of protected status for the word "craft" is the right answer, but the fact that Brewdog haven't got the right answer doesn't mean that they aren't asking a reasonable question.DavidSnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-3697809218261414352014-03-14T14:45:02.901+00:002014-03-14T14:45:02.901+00:00No py, sorry, you'll have to explain why what ...No py, sorry, you'll have to explain why <i>what I mean by "independent"</i> makes the word meaningless. (making "small, independent" == "small") Just as I'd want you to explain why you only gave me chips when I asked for fish as well.StringersBeerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12573068197944669997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-52024973502599491122014-03-14T14:39:36.335+00:002014-03-14T14:39:36.335+00:00Is independence a question of ownership? I own a b...Is independence a question of ownership? I own a business, or at least a ltd company. (not impressive, they cost buttons, google the formations company)<br /><br />I usually have 1 client at any one time. It is really a form of legal tax efficient disguised employment. I own 100% of the shares in the company. It isn't independent in any way shape or form. It is 100% dependent at any given time on the client. I am more of a corporate whore or shill than the permies. The man who pays the piper calls the tune. I like to think I play a decent tune and will play any you like for the rate.<br /><br />A small brewery with a big Tesco contract taking most of its output is less independent than one with multiple customers and partly owned by Coors.<br /><br />Brewdogs lack of independence is in the % of output the big supermarkets take.<br /><br />Cooking Lagerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02830924433230427226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-7878587548206503332014-03-14T14:32:53.110+00:002014-03-14T14:32:53.110+00:00I don't follow you. what do you mean by "...I don't follow you. what do you mean by "independent"? Entirely privately owned? Brewdog aren't.pynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-125522737298925052014-03-14T14:11:19.712+00:002014-03-14T14:11:19.712+00:00@py, no it doesn't. Else we could say that &q...@py, no it doesn't. Else we could say that "fish & chips" is the same as "chips" (depending on what you mean by "fish"). Which is patently nonsense.<br /><br />And yr 2nd point's goosed as well. StringersBeerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12573068197944669997noreply@blogger.com