tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post4531524510536928641..comments2024-03-23T04:23:48.076+00:00Comments on Tandleman's Beer Blog: A Popular MisconceptionUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger60125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-11636994064480794702012-01-08T12:48:39.822+00:002012-01-08T12:48:39.822+00:00Completely aside but just spent three days @ the W...Completely aside but just spent three days @ the Woolpack Inn and drank far too much Hardknott's Infra Red than I should have in the post-Christmas health guilt phase. Lovely beer in a lovely pub served by lovely people. Forgot to buy some bottles though!Rob Nicholsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14871887147718814739noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-77092327090197355012012-01-08T12:47:49.697+00:002012-01-08T12:47:49.697+00:00This comment has been removed by the author.Rob Nicholsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14871887147718814739noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-1051000512167748272012-01-07T11:25:51.176+00:002012-01-07T11:25:51.176+00:00Jeff - I'll ask my local butcher and greengroc...Jeff - I'll ask my local butcher and greengrocer about this the next time I'm in. "Excuse me, that meat is looking suspiciously <b>red</b>..."<br /><br />Dave - that was actually my point, kind of. It's much easier to raise the profit margin for product X by bringing in new improved product X+1, and letting product X fade quietly away, than by telling current satisfied customers of product X that they really ought to be paying more for it. That's the argument brewers are always going to struggle to win.Philhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07009879034507926661noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-51805231237734610772012-01-06T17:34:56.298+00:002012-01-06T17:34:56.298+00:00When you see food in the FRESH food aisle of Waitr...When you see food in the FRESH food aisle of Waitrose that is plastic packed and air tight, like salads, fruit, etc...that stuff is all under a mix of N2 and CO2, otherwise it would go brown. Same with the meat in the FRESH meat aisle or it wouldn't be red.<br /><br />Why do always accuse me of calling you names? I just said that I thought you were ignorant about modern food production.Jeff Rosenmeierhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14394121696731343956noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-51346442146470214452012-01-06T16:03:45.894+00:002012-01-06T16:03:45.894+00:00I think it was top comic David Mitchell, who, comm...I think it was top comic David Mitchell, who, commenting on those stupid household disinfectant adverts which draw our attention to vast numbers of bacteria and viruses coating all our kitchen surfaces, said "That must be alright then". Given that we're not all dead already.StringersBeerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12573068197944669997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-86267903860853476712012-01-06T13:21:45.801+00:002012-01-06T13:21:45.801+00:00I think you'd be hard pushed to prove that the...I think you'd be hard pushed to prove that the majority of "fresh" food is Jeff, but whatever. This is clearly a passion of yours that no-one can ever shift you from one iota and I respect you for that.<br /><br />I do wish you wouldn't name call though. That's disappointing.<br /><br /> :-(Tandlemanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06804499573827044693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-15364122972485628822012-01-06T13:09:25.891+00:002012-01-06T13:09:25.891+00:00Actually a majority of it is...more ignorance.Actually a majority of it is...more ignorance.Jeff Rosenmeierhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14394121696731343956noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-33594671354924121432012-01-06T13:07:50.603+00:002012-01-06T13:07:50.603+00:00Cheers Jeff. But of course all beer goes off after...Cheers Jeff. But of course all beer goes off after time, just as all food does. You wouldn't suggest all our food is vacuum sealed and flushed with CO2 would you?<br /><br />Neither presentation form is without its drawbacks.Tandlemanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06804499573827044693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-66630907738619219622012-01-06T12:42:24.003+00:002012-01-06T12:42:24.003+00:00Tandy, no problem, always happy to get your commen...Tandy, no problem, always happy to get your comment count up.<br /><br />Phil said that keg beer was an 'inferior' product. As a technical brewer one measure of quality for me is how many bugs are in the beer. Unfortunately, the antiquated nature of real ale dispense causes this 'quality lottery'.<br /><br />I'm really not trying to dis my real ale brewing friends here, I don't think there is a single one of them that wants to have their beers infected or oxidized, but unfortunately it is inevitable.Jeff Rosenmeierhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14394121696731343956noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-31042519185168618302012-01-06T12:18:14.467+00:002012-01-06T12:18:14.467+00:00Jeff: "Wow, I am amazed at the level of igno...Jeff: "Wow, I am amazed at the level of ignorance of some of the people that follow this blog."<br /><br />I think as most of my followers read other blogs too you could extend that to all blogs. Unless you are alleging I have particularly dim followers. Oh wait a minute. You have got me.<br /><br />You'll be telling us next about how every cask brewer in the UK agrees with your negative views about cask ale as they merrily produce their vinegar, or maybe the UK isn't on the same planet. Damn. Caught again!<br /><br />Seriously good to have you in there pitching Jeff.Tandlemanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06804499573827044693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-75752990526606462032012-01-06T12:11:46.021+00:002012-01-06T12:11:46.021+00:00Killer point to that argument Dave.Killer point to that argument Dave.Tandlemanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06804499573827044693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-52145735334052634652012-01-06T10:21:53.062+00:002012-01-06T10:21:53.062+00:00It's a common misconception that London is &qu...It's a common misconception that London is "where the numbers are". In fact, the population of Greater London is something like 8 million. Which is only about a third of the UK population who live in "Large Towns"<br /><br />For that matter, most people who live in the UK don't live in large towns, again, about twice as many actually live in small towns and smaller settlements.<br /><br />Just saying.StringersBeerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12573068197944669997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-48850483674592313392012-01-06T09:59:40.704+00:002012-01-06T09:59:40.704+00:00Phil,
Cask is 15% of the on sales beer market. 85...Phil,<br /><br />Cask is 15% of the on sales beer market. 85% of beer drinkers buy the more expensive keg versions.<br /><br />Perhaps drinkers aren't so difficult to convince after all.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11319272987951077205noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-3371442433614073082012-01-06T09:57:25.804+00:002012-01-06T09:57:25.804+00:00On that subject, it's worth mentioning this po...On that subject, it's worth mentioning this post I did about <a href="http://pubcurmudgeon.blogspot.com/2010/10/premiumisation.html" rel="nofollow">Premiumisation</a> a couple of years back.<br /><br />The other factor is the "quality lottery" involved when buying cask.Curmudgeonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02558747878308766840noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-10846566522475738472012-01-06T09:39:07.427+00:002012-01-06T09:39:07.427+00:00"I thought it was crazy when the price for ke...<i>"I thought it was crazy when the price for keg lager hit a point above that of cask ale"</i><br /><br />I thought it had always been above the price of ale, as when it was first introduced it was, as you say, perceived as an exotic premium product.<br /><br />And, in mainstream pubs, keg ales cost more than cask ales of the same strength.Curmudgeonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02558747878308766840noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-22822651439402488752012-01-06T09:36:25.917+00:002012-01-06T09:36:25.917+00:00Very easily - I'll do it again if you like. Th...Very easily - I'll do it again if you like. The comparison is that they're all cases where the producer sets a price for a new product line artificially high, and is then able to maintain it at that level.<br /><br />I'm not saying that craft keg is as inferior a product as old-style keg, just that it's inferior to the cask equivalent - which in my experience it very consistently has been. Some brewery-conditioned craft keg may be very good - some brewery-conditioned bottled beer <b>is</b> very good, after all - but when I've been able to compare like for like, I've never preferred the b.-c. to the cask version.<br /><br />As a beer drinker, I don't believe any price is "too low". I think brewers are always going to struggle to persuade punters on this one.Philhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07009879034507926661noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-57177700837914687342012-01-06T09:28:13.935+00:002012-01-06T09:28:13.935+00:00Wow, I am amazed at the level of ignorance of some...Wow, I am amazed at the level of ignorance of some of the people that follow this blog. How can you compare industrial lager and Guinness to craft keg when it comes to pricing?<br /><br />Today's cask ale is priced too low for the reasons I stated in my post above. <br /><br />You seem to agree that craft beer should cost more than the industrial shite and that is exactly what is finally happening, so what is the problem?<br /><br />"Prices set for the convenience of the brewer". What convenience would that be? Staying in business? Inferior Product? What a load of bullshit. You keep drinking the acetobacter infected real ale, those brewers need you.Jeff Rosenmeierhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14394121696731343956noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-53139582032269744682012-01-06T08:27:26.956+00:002012-01-06T08:27:26.956+00:00I thought it was crazy when the price for keg lage...I thought it was crazy when the price for keg lager (that exotic European drink - yes, I'm going back a bit) hit a point above that of cask ale and stuck there: why were people being asked to pay more for an inferior product, and why were they putting up with it? I thought the same thing all over again with nitrokeg Guinness. Now it looks like we're in for round three with Craft Keg - beer whose price is set for the convenience of the brewer, and stays that high because there's a critical mass of punters willing to pay over the odds for an inferior product. O joy.Philhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07009879034507926661noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-36358508316883408512012-01-04T17:49:50.308+00:002012-01-04T17:49:50.308+00:00What you have a budget?
Yes you can build almos...What you have a budget? <br /><br />Yes you can build almost anything on a budget...classic triangle though(draw it) 3 Sides = Quick Right Cheap You can only have 2 sides...Jeff Rosenmeierhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14394121696731343956noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-50845538049049638692012-01-04T17:36:47.855+00:002012-01-04T17:36:47.855+00:00Jeff, you are right, you CAN do keg on a budget, b...Jeff, you are right, you CAN do keg on a budget, but you need to be VERY resourceful.<br /><br />That is perhaps why you and I can and have.<br /><br />I think my keg wash cost more like £500, but does manage to clean regular sanky kegs, although my automated control system is Alex shaped.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11319272987951077205noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-87453499901229718432012-01-04T14:34:08.925+00:002012-01-04T14:34:08.925+00:00Good Questions @Erlangernick
Why does keg need m...Good Questions @Erlangernick <br /><br />Why does keg need more investment. It doesn't always. We started with Corny kegs which where 1/2 the price of firkins and built a keg wash for 100 quid. There are some reasons though that may apply, YMMV.<br /><br />* A more standard keg is a closed system and this system really needs a smart machine to wash them properly and efficiently. We are on an industry standard keg now and the 3 head washer/sanitiser we bought was expensive and you need additional bits that a small brewery may not have like an air compressor, bulk CO2 and enough juice to drive it<br />* If you are going to do keg beer with any level of carbonation in it you are going to need tanks that are pressure rated. For a small real ale brewery this really isn't necessary. The higher spec tanks, the more they cost<br />* There is sometime additional investment needed in order to get your beer on the bar. Maybe buying a font, regulators, fob detectors, couplers, chillers, fitting, whereas not always the case with real ale, you just bang the tap in and screw it to the line<br />* CAMRA will tell you that you need a filter and a pasteurizer and all that, but that is just bullshit, as you can do keg beer without.<br /><br />What is wrong with using an air filter, fundamentally I don't think CAMRA would care if you shoved a hepa filter into the shive hole...that is the very least I would do. Remember it's not just the bugs, but the O2 that is killing the beer. I've said it a million times before, talk to any brewer on the planet and there is ONLY 1 place that O2 is desired in the brewing process...and it's not in contact with the finished beer.<br /><br />Cheers,Jeff Rosenmeierhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14394121696731343956noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-34578075597740514772012-01-04T12:04:20.574+00:002012-01-04T12:04:20.574+00:00As a poor foreigner looking in from outside --as w...As a poor foreigner looking in from outside --as well as not being in the trade-- this has been an interesting, informative discussion. I've had to read up on what this Beer Orders business is all about.<br /><br />A couple of questions have arisen though: Why does keg require a greater investment on the brewing end?<br /><br />What about using filters to protect the ale from skanky pub cellar air--would this present a breather-esque problem?<br /><br />I thought I read somewhere (HardknottDave?) that the cask market is difficult to break into for new brewers. But I guess I was reading while drunk. <br /><br />And the idea that CAMRA should work on its definition of Real Ale whilst throwing around the utterly meaningless "craft" term is pretty funny. I say it's easier to call these keg beers by what they *ain't*, than what they supposedly are: non-shite keg. People can more easily agree that a good, interesting, flavourful, well-hopped ale from a big automated kit is "not shite" than they can agree that it's "crafted", whatever imagery of a wood-paddle-brandishing brewer sweating into the mash tun is supposed to connote.Erlangernickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09564871714656285737noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-20997650536017261652012-01-04T00:12:53.300+00:002012-01-04T00:12:53.300+00:00Personally I think that the slim margins cask seem...Personally I think that the slim margins cask seems to function on are at least in part down to the larger brewers and wholesalers continuously sacrificing profit margin for volume, in order to win new business. As they drop their prices to win new accounts, other publicans and punters start demanding comparable pricing over time, and suddenly the product/brand has been devalued. A very easy situation to get in to, and a very difficult one to reverse.<br /><br />If brewers want to command higher (and probably fairer) prices for their cask products, the challenge is a monumental one - a whole lot of people need to be educated on the costs and economics of brewing a pint of beer that actually tastes of something. Because if it's the cheapest price you can find, the chances are, it doesn't.Benhttp://twitter.com/cptcheerfulnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-62245107994815925422012-01-03T23:39:07.489+00:002012-01-03T23:39:07.489+00:00"In fact the period right after the Beer Orde..."In fact the period right after the Beer Orders was the only time in the past 40 years when lager sales went into retreat, as the big brewers were forced to put guest ales on their bars."<br /><br />Nothing there that contradicts me. I didn't say "right after"<br /><br />I agree about the quality bit, though clearly what you say about Fullers would need some clinical rather than anecdotal evidence. My anecdotal experience wouldn't support that.<br /><br />The Beer Orders were more or less a complete disaster.Tandlemanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06804499573827044693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-41058585765602057552012-01-03T20:52:40.675+00:002012-01-03T20:52:40.675+00:00Oh, and Chriso - you'd be surprised how few ou...Oh, and Chriso - you'd be surprised how few outlets a "one man and a dog" brewery needs to be viable. Ten years ago I did a study that suggested, IIRC, that fewer than 70 semi-regular accounts were all that were needed, and that was before PDA …Martyn Cornellhttp://zythophile.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.com