tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post4618750251279645862..comments2024-03-23T04:23:48.076+00:00Comments on Tandleman's Beer Blog: Tell Me What You ThinkUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger53125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-11389521834387235462012-01-18T22:21:23.515+00:002012-01-18T22:21:23.515+00:00Phil: We had a long discussion about Thornbridge’s...Phil: We had a long discussion about Thornbridge’s bottled beer last year, din’t we? It’s not filtered, but centrifuged instead (which leads to all manner of entertaining arguments about whether there’s philosophically any difference between filtering yeast out, centrifuging it or just letting it sink to the bottom very slowly). It’s not bottle-conditioned because it’s already carbonated before it goes into the bottle.Rob Sterowskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07870233673933087794noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-58561548771848742252012-01-13T16:23:22.249+00:002012-01-13T16:23:22.249+00:00RedNev - Anonymous comments always run the risk of...RedNev - Anonymous comments always run the risk of a bit of stick, though in this case, I don't think it was.Tandlemanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06804499573827044693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-36939808855706236942012-01-13T16:02:46.729+00:002012-01-13T16:02:46.729+00:00Is it less arrogant if it's only occasional?
...Is it less arrogant if it's only occasional?<br /><br />I was referring to the recent fashion for infographics on Boak & Bailey's blog and Twitter.<br /><br />Everything's better with an infographic.The Beer Nuthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14105708522526153528noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-35585329260400280462012-01-13T15:59:31.476+00:002012-01-13T15:59:31.476+00:00Beer Nut: are you in the habit of patronising peop...Beer Nut: are you in the habit of patronising people? If so, it's rather arrogant.Neville Grundyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10923209266005338452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-19694421649538611172012-01-13T15:59:31.257+00:002012-01-13T15:59:31.257+00:00Beer Nut: are you in the habit of patronising peop...Beer Nut: are you in the habit of patronising people? If so, it's rather arrogant.Neville Grundyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10923209266005338452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-20599509721017856272012-01-13T15:04:33.679+00:002012-01-13T15:04:33.679+00:00Isn't mentioning the smoking ban the beer blog...Isn't mentioning the smoking ban the beer blogging equivalent of Godwin's Law?<br /><br />As for what I think... I think thinking's so important, Baldrick. CAMRA have no need to 'react' to 'craft keg'. After all, it's a campaign *for* something. <br /><br />I'll tell you more over a glass of something german and gassy at NWAF...Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03387325466589229898noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-86646685640830804092012-01-13T14:32:52.301+00:002012-01-13T14:32:52.301+00:00Anonymous, please draw RedNev and Bailey an infogr...Anonymous, please draw RedNev and Bailey an infographic.The Beer Nuthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14105708522526153528noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-44727203810615244962012-01-13T14:02:16.526+00:002012-01-13T14:02:16.526+00:00CAMRA's response to the appearance of craft be...CAMRA's response to the appearance of craft beer in kegs should be something to do with the smoking ban? That's... how would that.. wha..?Baileyhttp://boakandbailey.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-71690592451116702902012-01-12T06:06:43.450+00:002012-01-12T06:06:43.450+00:00Anon: what about it?Anon: what about it?Neville Grundyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10923209266005338452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-43395476007590626882012-01-12T00:23:20.107+00:002012-01-12T00:23:20.107+00:00But what about the smoking ban?But what about the smoking ban?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-43217444278330174702012-01-11T13:09:46.437+00:002012-01-11T13:09:46.437+00:00I have to echo the call on Kegbusters: firstly, th...I have to echo the call on Kegbusters: firstly, the name seems at odds with CAMRA's constant claim that it exists to promote cask ale, not denigrate other kinds, but more importantly, it does a better job than Real Ale Twats of making real ale drinkers look like, well, twats. <br /><br />The December edition was staggeringly wrong-headed for an organisation that is trying to attract more female members and to turn women onto real ale: a bunch of rubgy-shirts making dick-jokes and behaving like boorish idiots you'd leave a great pub to avoid, the presentation of women purely as sex-objects, and a final scene that comes pretty close to actively promoting prostitution? It's even more ill-thought out than the "beer goddess" campaign.<br /><br />But congratulations where it's due on finally ditching the "pint head" campaign. <br /><br />I'll also echo Beer Nut's comments on the issue of "real ale": I'll also point out that CAMRA actually go a step further than that and explicitely conflate "real ale" with good beer (despite their frequent claims to the contrary) in the title of their flagship publication.FrFintonStacknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-20537372518674545252012-01-11T11:43:51.291+00:002012-01-11T11:43:51.291+00:00What was that story I half-understood about Thornb...What was that story I half-understood about Thornbridge and centrifuges, to the effect that while their bottled beer was unfiltered you'd still have to look pretty hard before you found a molecule of active yeast? Something about labelling, too - the label on one of theirs originally said it was bottle-conditioned (because unfiltered) then didn't (because so little yeast actually present)? Somebody must remember this better than I do (it would be hard to remember it less well).Philhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07009879034507926661noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-20809856566831976022012-01-11T07:11:37.523+00:002012-01-11T07:11:37.523+00:00I've found the bottled Kipling to disappoint s...I've found the bottled Kipling to disappoint some, at least based on the *one* pint I've managed to enjoy of casked stuff -- had to travel to Nuremberg, of all places, to get that though. Just isn't as hoppy, and comes across a bit sweet at 5%.<br /><br />Wild Swan, OTOH, is fecking brilliant in the bottle! Seems more characterful than the cask I enjoyed a couple of times last year at the Sheffield Tap. And Jaipur seems about the same as casked.<br /><br />None of them are bottle conditioned though; I'd say Thornbridge have got non-bottle-conditioned bottling sorted.Erlangernickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09564871714656285737noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-853920168454443762012-01-10T14:43:59.938+00:002012-01-10T14:43:59.938+00:00do we know of pubs that have stayed away from cask...<i>do we know of pubs that have stayed away from cask ale (because of shelf life or not knowing how to look after it )but have started to stock craft keg and then moved onto cask?</i><br />This is what's happening in Ireland, though it's probably more about their customers' interest in cask beer than the technicalities of keeping it. Craft keg beers get them weaned off the mass-market stuff, and cask follows from that when the pub's customer base is big enough.The Beer Nuthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14105708522526153528noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-56038671327384055752012-01-10T14:32:39.419+00:002012-01-10T14:32:39.419+00:00You're right to say the campaigns don't re...You're right to say the campaigns don't resonate with much of the membership.I have been a member of CAMRA for 6 months and am not sure I'll renew next year - I reckon it will be better for the industry if I spend the membership fee at one of my local brewery taps (and 50p off a pint of teeth jarringly cold ale at the JDW is unlikely to convince me otherwise). But this debate gives me a bit of hope. I would like to see CAMRA at least back off anti-keg sentiment, if not begin to support craft keg (or whatever). Evidence, rather than opinion, might be helpful though. Is there evidence for craft keg opening up the market for real ale? E.g. do we know of pubs that have stayed away from cask ale (because of shelf life or not knowing how to look after it )but have started to stock craft keg and then moved onto cask? How many of us have persuaded a mate to try something kegged as a 'safe' intro to flavoursome beer before trying them on some real ale?<br />If craft keg can be demonstrably seen as complementary rather thab a threat, perhaps the old guard will see sense.Lorrainenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-27974492895690683082012-01-10T12:36:47.732+00:002012-01-10T12:36:47.732+00:00Maybe some are? I just don't know.Maybe some are? I just don't know.Tandlemanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06804499573827044693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-68112589060210185662012-01-10T12:11:50.541+00:002012-01-10T12:11:50.541+00:00"Thornbridge certainly have got the bottled-c...<i>"Thornbridge certainly have got the bottled-conditioned aspect well sorted. Closest bottle-conditioned to draught I've had for a while."</i><br /><br />I didn't actually think Thornbridge's bottled beers were bottle-conditioned.Curmudgeonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02558747878308766840noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-19057207947347977252012-01-10T11:52:13.573+00:002012-01-10T11:52:13.573+00:00Chriso: Your points re carbonation are well-made. ...Chriso: Your points re carbonation are well-made. Referring to Tandleman's blog today (10th) Thornbridge certainly have got the bottled-conditioned aspect well sorted. Closest bottle-conditioned to draught I've had for a while.<br />Back to the ask breather argument. Well, CO2 is CO2. If a cask breather stops the beer going flat it can't be bad. The correct level of carbonation for fresh beer can be maintained, and the amount of oxygen let in is also reduced, which retards staling. What it does is keeps all this in some sort of equilibrium, without making the beer gassy or arresting secondary fermentation, as if more CO2 is naturally produced by this route, the demand valve will not let any more in, and may well release pressure - as I say it should keep things steady.Nick Boleynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-19820869609442630842012-01-10T10:47:41.296+00:002012-01-10T10:47:41.296+00:00@chriso: "difference between the effects of n...@chriso: "difference between the effects of natural & artificial gas"(!) would be a religious question rather than a scientific one.StringersBeerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12573068197944669997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-77506163533788783242012-01-09T18:11:46.623+00:002012-01-09T18:11:46.623+00:00Nick Boley: The issues of gas, and of cask breathe...Nick Boley: The issues of gas, and of cask breathers, are interesting. Even most CAMRA diehards like a bit of gas in their beer, provided it gets there "naturally". If memory serves me well, a major original objection to extraneous gas was that keg beers were invariably over-fizzy, using the carbonic bite it produced as a substitute for brewing properly. As you say, many bottle-conditioned beers are, frankly, not very well made, with over-primed, over-carbonated beers being relatively common. So we now have the concept of "good" gas vs "bad" gas, irrespective of the level of carbonation involved, and determined by whether it is produced naturally or introduced by some other means. Now, I don't have sufficient scientific expertise to know whether there is a qualitative difference between the effects of natural & artificial gas, but I've not seen any technical analysis exploring the issue. Yes, natural is nice in general terms, but, if the difference to the product in my glass is negligible, it's not going to be something I get too het up about.chrisohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04237048759619426609noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-20270693387594695832012-01-09T10:34:19.915+00:002012-01-09T10:34:19.915+00:00I, for one, am pleased that this debate is happeni...I, for one, am pleased that this debate is happening now. It is long overdue. I have been a CAMRA member for 35+ years and find the extremist fundamentalist positions of many at national AGMs disheartening to say the least. It puts many active members off attending because the debate is arcane, detailed and seemingly often irrelevant to most of us in the campaign. The fact that many of these members are of my generation depresses me, as we all get tarred with that particular brush at times.<br />My view is simple: the new wave of so-called craft-keg brewers have far more in common with us in CAMRA than they don't. They are passionate about quality beer, beer styles, marketing beer more widely, etc. OK, so many of us prefer cask ale, but some of these new keg beers aren't bad and a million times better than Watney's Red. Many of their bottled beers are better-tasting and less gassy than many Real Ale in A Bottle beers.<br />These new craft brewers are not CAMRA's enemies - we know who are (PubCos, supermarkets, fascist health police, Treasury, etc) - and so fighting them or wasting time on arcane debates is pointless and counter-productive. Yes, cask beer comes first, after that perhaps we should look at good beer. <br />The cask breather debate has also been raised. As a chemist, I have looked at the chemistry of the application of a cask breather and can find no reason for extraneous CO2 to get into the beer.Nick Boleynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-68501653899767450762012-01-08T17:29:03.280+00:002012-01-08T17:29:03.280+00:00Again, maybe a simplistic view of things (which I ...Again, maybe a simplistic view of things (which I tend to do) but for me, what I'd like to see CAMRA do adopt a less confrontational approach - keg, bloggers. Bloggers are not 'noisesome' - ask the hundreds of breweries who have enjoyed increased revenue through instant publicity and support that bloggers can - and have - provide. Many bloggers are CAMRA members, and I think that's sometimes forgotten. (realise your post may not have been about this subject per se, but you get my drift).Leighhttp://www.goodfoodgoodbeer.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-39934112000053650962012-01-07T17:31:22.333+00:002012-01-07T17:31:22.333+00:00"I think that part of the problem is at the c...<i>"I think that part of the problem is at the centre, where a lean organisation of beer enthusiasts has been replaced by a bloated bereaucracy seeking new ways to justify their existence."</i><br /><br />Indeed, and they come up with all kinds of politically correct "campaigns" that just do not resonate with the membership.<br /><br />To read many CAMRA publications, you would get the impression that the organisation's main focus was to oppose planning permission to turn failed pubs into something more viable.Curmudgeonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02558747878308766840noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-63576634542352667302012-01-07T17:18:41.980+00:002012-01-07T17:18:41.980+00:00I found your comment on "the resurgence of Lo...I found your comment on "the resurgence of London as a beery city" amusing - I live in East London and have just 5 decent pubs within 20-25 minutes walk (plus others that don't sell anything I want to buy). Getting to the few specialist bars in the centre is a lengthy and expensive experience. 1 of the 5 pubs, which reopened last year, does offer craft keg, but rarely seems to sell any - I think price is a big factor.<br /><br />On CAMRA, I looked at the aims listed on page 5 of BEER and find them a complete mishmash. The list starts with "good quality real ale" - ie not ALL real ale - but then mentions the aspiration to be the "consumer's champion" in the "beer and drinks industry". If it were, it would be against minimum pricing (which will eventually hit pubs as well) and would campaign properly against high pub prices, the real reason for closures (although I agree that the smoking ban was a tipping point for many). When new, it camapigned against low strength watered down beers (I think anything under 3% was excluded from the GBG). Now, it encourages them, in nanny state fashion.<br /><br />I think that part of the problem is at the centre, where a lean organisation of beer enthusiasts has been replaced by a bloated bereaucracy seeking new ways to justify their existence.<br /><br />I think CAMRA needs to revert to its origins but recognise that in the real world people don't decide on their drinks by the dispense system. It should accept that there is a lot of poor quality real ale about as well as poor quality keg. <br /><br />The focus should be on good quality beer of all kinds served at an affordable price (I'm not yet on a pension, but I suspect that more and more members are). High carbonation is a barrier to quality in my view, but I've no objection to normal beer from Bavaria, for example. I recently tried some US craft (keg) in the US and would willingly drink some of these in place of many real ales (but not at £7 a pint).<br /><br />I've been a CAMRA member for 30 years and was 'active' for the first half of that time. If I hadn't signed up for life membership years ago I would have lapsed by now.Ian Wordennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-9365921309972256262012-01-07T16:55:15.065+00:002012-01-07T16:55:15.065+00:00Dear Mr Tandleman,
Until there are generally acce...Dear Mr Tandleman,<br /><br />Until there are generally accepted definitions of “craft beer” and “craft keg” I and many others, I'm sure, will be unable to respond to your question in an objective, logical, manner. <br /><br />Therefore unless anybody can let me know what they are I'll just leave this issue mainly to the 'fan boys'(and girls) of say Camden, Lovibonds and, to me anyway, surprisingly Thwaites; see below.<br /><br />Cheers,<br /> John Holland an 'ordinary'CAMRA member.<br />PS My Google Account not working hence my becoming anonymous.<br /><br />http://www.thwaites.co.uk/thwaitesbeerco/beer_brands/craft_beers/Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com