tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post4690635752181081212..comments2024-03-29T07:17:26.082+00:00Comments on Tandleman's Beer Blog: How Was GBBF for You?Unknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger50125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-69845228083503055312017-09-11T14:06:49.314+01:002017-09-11T14:06:49.314+01:00@Wishbone Brewery - I'm not sure you can say t...@Wishbone Brewery - I'm not sure you can say that the winners are "the same old faces" - noone had heard of Tiny Rebel, Binghams or Church End outside their immediate area before they won CBOB. And the reason why the likes of Salopian often appear on the podium in the individual categories is that they make great beer and do so consistently. Other breweries usually manage only one of those. I don't think that's "dull" - it's a criticism of the other breweries.<br /><br />However as well as tweaking some of the categories, I think that there's probably scope to have more awards given the size of the industry and the commercial benefits of CAMRA endorsement. In particular I think there should be an Ernest Salmon award for the best beer using British hops and some kind of award for best young brewer, or best brewery under 2 years old or something.<br /><br />qqnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-63930009935705902632017-09-03T15:43:47.063+01:002017-09-03T15:43:47.063+01:00I've not been to GBBF but year on year it seem...I've not been to GBBF but year on year it seems the winners can be the same old faces, and 90% of the winners are taking prizes for very traditional beers with very little of the more forward thinking beers in the list. And some beers win the same categories year on year, this is rather dull.<br />I'd like to see more interesting beers in the winners list, maybe a new bunch of people need to do the judging altogether?? or limits on Brewers entering the same beers year on year??<br /><br />Just ideas.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09018417106234748283noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-51111938069337861062017-09-01T13:51:43.775+01:002017-09-01T13:51:43.775+01:00qq makes some excellent, well articulated points.
...qq makes some excellent, well articulated points.<br /><br />I should add, my initial comment wasnt intended to shit on the GBBF or CAMRA, but just my two penneth in the context of some wider criticisms and wider issues surrounding the organisation (revitalisation project etc)<br /><br />CAMRA may be perfectly happy with the fest and its wider membership numbers. However, without this wanting to come across as a big ego massage, ultimately I'm a 30 year old with a decent disposable income, I drink a lot of beer (in pubs and at home) and enjoy cask ale (drinking a pint of Vocation Chop & Change as I type), as well as keg. Moreover I'm interested in beer beyond just the odd pint (hence why I'm commenting here) and go to several festivals a year (Peakender, IMBC, CBC, Sunfest in Sheffield etc). I based a 70 mile bike ride around the Stalybridge Buffet Bar yeaterday juat so I could have a few pints of Sonoma. Yet despite all of this I have no interest in joining CAMRA or going to the GBBF as it stands. Maybe everything is rosy in the garden as things stand, but if I was CAMRA I'd at least be considering why that wasDavidnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-85409307374159453342017-09-01T13:39:39.364+01:002017-09-01T13:39:39.364+01:00I lol'd
Those were the toughest names we had!...I lol'd<br /><br />Those were the toughest names we had!Davidnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-85820463618638856152017-08-30T23:55:27.925+01:002017-08-30T23:55:27.925+01:00CAMRA Dinosaurs consider me a 'Craft Wanker...CAMRA Dinosaurs consider me a 'Craft Wanker'.<br /><br />Craft Wankers consider me a 'CAMRA Dinosaur'.<br /><br />I think that probably means I get the balance just about right...Ben Viveurhttp://www.benviveur.co.uknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-51036046584819555452017-08-30T19:01:47.805+01:002017-08-30T19:01:47.805+01:00So you think GBBF should stay unchanged until it g...So you think GBBF should stay unchanged until it gets closed down and is replaced by the Great British Curry Festival?<br /><br />On the assumption that none of us actually want that, it's a question of how to respond to those very real pressures from changing tastes. All I'm suggesting are tweaks rather than revolution - like having more cask beer in the styles that the new entrants like to drink. From what you're writing it comes across as though you want GBBF to stay exactly as it is with no care to its long-term sustainability because it won't be your problem by the time it's not sustainable. I'm sure that's not what you really think, but it's what you seem to be saying here.qqnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-52059618618974513602017-08-30T18:13:29.849+01:002017-08-30T18:13:29.849+01:00@qq - that, of course, is an explanation of pub de...@qq - that, of course, is an explanation of pub decline. And, of course, they have evolved in response to it by turning themselves into things more appealing to a different demographic such as convenience stores, Indian restaurants and blocks of flats.Curmudgeonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02558747878308766840noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-9013274895482251122017-08-30T17:57:41.517+01:002017-08-30T17:57:41.517+01:00Aside from vital matters such as whether it should...Aside from vital matters such as whether it should be spelt "craft wanka" to distinguish from "craft wankers, beer snobs and other such people", how does the GBBF respond to the changing demographics and preferences of drinkers? As one learned blogger <a href="http://pubcurmudgeon.blogspot.co.uk/2017/08/alway-look-on-bright-side.html" rel="nofollow">put it last week</a> :<br />"It’s also important not to forget the role of demographic churn as an agent of change. Many of the shifts in patterns of pubgoing are not due to existing customers changing their behaviour, but to new entrants to the population of potential pubgoers having very different habits from those whose custom has been lose due to age or infirmity. "<br /><br />If pubs have to evolve to reflect the requirements of those new entrants, is the same not true of the GBBF?qqnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-50248904063157187822017-08-30T15:14:08.475+01:002017-08-30T15:14:08.475+01:00That's our word, man.That's our word, man.Craft Wankernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-21539842919190022952017-08-30T14:54:46.618+01:002017-08-30T14:54:46.618+01:00Oh, I think "craft wankers" are usually ...Oh, I think "craft wankers" are usually happy to describe themselves as such, ironically of course ;-)Curmudgeonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02558747878308766840noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-8108696964774146192017-08-30T14:30:24.823+01:002017-08-30T14:30:24.823+01:00"craft wankers" @mudgie? Really? That&..."craft wankers" @mudgie? Really? That's what we call people who like the beers we don't? This is the kind of shit that gives us reactionary old farts a bad name. StringersBeerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12573068197944669997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-25606902129509749782017-08-29T14:17:23.370+01:002017-08-29T14:17:23.370+01:00"I'm sure there wasn't exactly a shor..."I'm sure there wasn't exactly a shortage of bones for craft wankers, beer snobs and other such people - the American cask bar for starters."<br /><br />Well, as Ben points out, there actually was a shortage. But generally, this is precisely the thing that drives me up the wall about all this. There are clearly plenty of people going to GBBF who want to drink this sort of beer (and there might well be more if there were more beers to tempt them), but despite the fact that plenty of British brewers are brewing cask ales in this sort of style, CAMRA seem determined to send the message that if that's what you like then you should stay away from British cask and stick to the foreign stuff.<br /><br />To be honest I'm genuinely baffled that people are defending this situation. It just feels like they're objecting to any sort of change as a matter of principle, or out of resentment towards any sort of criticism.<br />DaveShttp://brewinabedsit.blogspot.co.uknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-81650213723786324942017-08-28T18:41:54.464+01:002017-08-28T18:41:54.464+01:00Exactly, qq - I'm a firm believer that things ...Exactly, qq - I'm a firm believer that things need always to change (often subtly) to stay the same.John Westhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15471796457374078158noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-73396662428818030162017-08-28T17:45:48.780+01:002017-08-28T17:45:48.780+01:00Huh? Obviously I wasn't saying you personally ...Huh? Obviously I wasn't saying you personally are "on the road to extinction", I was talking in the general sense, perhaps I should have made it clearer by replacing "you" with "one" or "organisations".<br /><br />I'd suggest that compared to many people on these blogs, I'm far more respectful of differing opinions than most - I certainly wouldn't use language like "beer snobs" before dismissing some people as "wankers" based on their beer choice.<br /><br />I want cask beer to thrive - it's 90% of what I drink in pubs. In the last year I've been to maybe six cask festivals (including one on the bar, in the past I've done the beer ordering so I understand the need for balance) and one keg festival. But I also have some awareness of how the market is changing and that for cask and CAMRA to thrive, their showcase event has to evolve. If CAMRA thinks people like me are the problem, then extinction is probably closer than we realise.qqnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-86199621123523258792017-08-28T17:18:13.561+01:002017-08-28T17:18:13.561+01:00"And if you lack the humility to learn from o...<i>"And if you lack the humility to learn from others, then you are on the road to extinction." </i><br /><br />Oh dear, looks like we're introducing a personal note into the discussion :-( Maybe you need the humility to respect the fact that other people may have a different view from your own.<br />Curmudgeonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02558747878308766840noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-32598475926730525172017-08-28T15:48:35.398+01:002017-08-28T15:48:35.398+01:00And I wasn't saying only have >4.5% stuff. ...And I wasn't saying only have >4.5% stuff. But I think the _balance_ needs to change a bit, in part down to that generational thing. I'd suggest that the average 60yo might drink 90% <4.5% at a festival, but the average 20yo might drink 60% <4.5% - and a 40yo might have drunk 85% a decade ago but is now drinking 70% <4.5%. So where 90% <4.5% might have been appropriate in the 1990s, now the mix should look like 75% under 4.5% if you want to appeal to a wide range of the population.<br /><br />I've made up those numbers but you get the gist of what I'm trying to say. As I mentioned, never mind IndyMan, you have the evidence of the US bar of GBBF punters being keen to try beers that are higher ABV.<br /><br />And if you lack the humility to learn from others, then you are on the road to extinction. <br /><br />Two other things I meant to mention. As someone who tries to make a point of having one cider at a festival, I didn't this time because the cider bar was away from the main circulation. And having it so far from the main seating areas was unfair on the groups who have 1 cider drinker. I don't have a particular thing for cider, but as the only bar of its type at the festival, it should have had a more central location - roughly where the bookshop was for instance.<br /><br />And given how bottled beer has become so much easier to find in recent years, I'd make the festival draught only, but with more foreign draught.<br /><br />qqnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-31640295064436456912017-08-28T15:21:11.371+01:002017-08-28T15:21:11.371+01:00"people only drink <4.5% at festivals"...<i>"people only drink <4.5% at festivals"</i><br /><br />I never said that. But at festivals with a generalist appeal, they predominantly do. And I really don't think a craft wanker extravaganza such as IMBC has anything to teach CAMRA about running festivals.Curmudgeonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02558747878308766840noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-82796283489534525592017-08-28T14:49:00.012+01:002017-08-28T14:49:00.012+01:00<< very constructive comments, qq. Completel...<< very constructive comments, qq. Completely agree. We're talking tweaks that would mean a lot to a large number of potential festival goers but that would not alienate CAMRA lifers and those drinkers with a preference for classic bitters and milds (lord only knows I love these beers, too). John Westhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15471796457374078158noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-34461413771991498192017-08-28T14:32:49.979+01:002017-08-28T14:32:49.979+01:00There seems to be a knee-jerk reaction to somethin...There seems to be a knee-jerk reaction to something like the "modern beer" mentioned by Curtis as being code for #evilkeg but it's not - there's a whole range of beer styles that are very poorly represented at GBBF (outside the US bar) - wood aged ones for instance. I guess the rules against one-offs militate against those, I'd argue they need to be relaxed - the nature of the brewing industry is shifting, with a much higher % of beer produced being short-run specials qv Cloudwater and less core beer. And frankly, the way a festival justifies my entry fee is by letting me drink stuff I can't get elsewhere, whether through rarity or because it's not commercial for my local pub to carry 6% beers in cask. Given the choice now available to punters on the High St, festivals have to try that much harder to justify their entry fees - having a proportion, say 20-30% of beers that pander to the ticker market helps make the economics work. The excitement over the US bar is partly just knowing that it's the only time you'll see these beers in the UK - and that's a draw.<br /><br />Note I'm not saying have no 3.8% pale ale - but I think the current mix needs revising. In particular I'd look at the definition of "Speciality". Something like Tatton Lazy Haze (tea and honey) is 3.7% and presents flavours that are well within the spectrum of "normal" beer - its strapline is "Subtletea", so would be a way to add interest to the list whilst keeping ABVs down and without turning it into a freak show. Plum Porter would be another example - there needs to be a separate category of "adjunct beers that taste like normal beer" as distinct from "weird stuff". I think that's one area where there's a lot more going on (in part due to the "craft" influence, in part by the commercial need to stand out against 1500 other breweries), and just lumping everything together in "Speciality" no longer represents where the market is at.<br /><br />I mentioned new hops - the geek in me would love to see a dedicated bar devoted to showcasing new British hops, they're the future of the industry. Again it's the sort of thing that could only really work at GBBF, but is an important part of consumer education. I make a point of trying to seek out beers with new British hops but the current structure doesn't make it easy - perhaps there could be a tick box on the online list for it? More generally, I think CAMRA could do more informal education at the festival. I don't really want to be dragged away from my friends in a formal tasting session, but a bar of single-hop beers in the same grist to show punters the difference between Fuggles and Jester and EKG would work I think, it's the sort of thing that could perhaps be made by trainees on a brewery pilot plant. In a world where the Champion Beer of Britain is a Cascade/Chinook pale, CAMRA needs to do a bit more to support the British hop industry, they're a key part of maintaining a distinctively British beer culture and creating more consumer awareness of different British hops would help I think.<br /><br />Then there's the layout, which remains baffling to the casual visitor. If you don't know that Dunham is a mile inside the boundary of Greater Manchester, you'll be looking for it under Cheshire, on the other end of the show. I wish the bars were regional - it would give a better sense of "place" as well as making it easier for volunteers - someone from Devon is more likely to have some awareness of Somerset beers and breweries than they do of Cumbria and Essex. <br /><br />The bar numbering system is hugely inefficient, you could convey far more positional information with those three characters. Right wall of the main hall is bars 10-19, right-centre row is 20-29 and so on, if you run out of numbers then allocate the brewery bars as eg 22a if between 22 and 23 (ie roughly where Fullers were, I've not got the map to hand).<br />qqnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-79844134950915774722017-08-28T14:31:36.559+01:002017-08-28T14:31:36.559+01:00I must admit, as a visitor I had a nice time but t...I must admit, as a visitor I had a nice time but the British cask beer was probably the most meh part of the whole experience. That Curtis tweet definitely resonates with me, I think GBBF needs to do more to show a visiting Martian (or at least, the many international visitors) the highlights of British cask beer, rather than the average bits of it. To take one example - Beartown took the top two slots in Champion Beer of Cheshire, with a 5% mild and a ginger-flavoured beer. Were either representing the county at CAMRA's premier beer festival? Of course not, there was a different beer from Beartown there though which fitted "the gold/amber/copper colour spectrum and between 3.5% and 4.5% ABV". That's just nuts. Treat GBBF as the culmination of all the county beer festivals, and represent each county at a minimum by the Champion Beer of X top 3, then start on the style balancing.<br /><br />And whilst Buggins turn helps counter local branch favouritism, it means that some really bad breweries get a slot on the bar. Seriously -there was one brewery there that I would rate in the bottom 20% of local breweries - I'm not sure how their presence at GBBF helps anyone. I don't know how you balance things, ideally GBBF should provide a platform for the breweries that are just bubbling under national awareness whilst rocking things at a local level - someone like Deva for instance, who had Champion Beer of North Wales with Pandemonium. I'm not so worried about Marble, they're now well known enough to not need GBBF, but the trade (and consumers) want to discover the Devas of this world. Pandemonium is the kind of thing that Curtis was talking about - 5% APA is a popular "modern" beer these days, but there was very little at Olympia. <br /><br />Think of the logic from a trade perspective - if you're promoting the idea of LocAle, then the trade can get bog standard Goldings brown or Cascade pale from a LocAle source. If you're treating the GBBF as a trade show for cask ale buyers, then you aren't particularly interested in another bog standard pale just because it comes from Durham or Dorset - you want to find the beer that is so extraordinarily good that it's worth going beyond LocAle sources. Inevitably that will probably include some less common styles that take more skill to brew, but just give us all the champions.<br /><br />Like David, I'd love to know the thought processes that end up with one of our most interesting breweries being represented by Wild Swan, perhaps Thornbridge's least interesting beer that you can get in Asda for flip's sake. You can't even blame the ABV, Thornbridge have recent <4.5% beers such as Django with Thai spices or one made with the new Godiva hop. I've made the comment elsewhere that it feels like the balance between styles is being made at too low a level - if you only have to produce four beers then you'll produce two pales, a brown and a dark, whereas if you're producing twelve beers then you can be more granular, you might have 5 pales, 2 browns, a stout, a mild, a saison, a strong and a tea beer. I completely understand the need to balance styles, but I think the current mix being targetted is rather old-fashioned and aimed at 50-somethings rather than a more representative sample of the population, certainly of London. Obviously you tailor your list to the market, but the GBBF list would be better suited to a branch festival in the provinces than the premier event in the middle of one of the most sophisticated beer cities in the world. <br /><br />The argument that "people only drink <4.5% at festivals" is plainly disproved by the likes of IndyMan and the GBBF's own US bar - I think CAMRA are missing out on a generational shift where people are tending to drink less volume but a bit higher ABV and more "interesting"...qqnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-60063877371115875132017-08-28T07:55:39.451+01:002017-08-28T07:55:39.451+01:00@Mudgie, the American cask bar ran dry on the Thur...@Mudgie, the American cask bar ran dry on the Thursday. There WAS exactly a shortage. That was the problem.Ben Viveurhttp://www.benviveur.co.uknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-28616553645459778142017-08-27T17:10:01.038+01:002017-08-27T17:10:01.038+01:00I'm sure there wasn't exactly a shortage o...I'm sure there wasn't exactly a shortage of bones for craft wankers, beer snobs and other such people - the American cask bar for starters.Curmudgeonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02558747878308766840noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-29302438179583896382017-08-27T11:07:14.859+01:002017-08-27T11:07:14.859+01:00@Mugie - no-one's talking about alienating the...@Mugie - no-one's talking about alienating the "typical beer festival punter", of course. As I said, jazz up the list *a bit* and have a think about pricing, aesthetic and entertainment. I don't think that's particularly radical.<br /><br />Personally, I'd prefer a really *this is the best of the best* fest. But if it's meant to be a snapshot, let's just throw a bone to effete, bed-wetting, Graun-reading, Hackney-dwelling types like us, eh? John Westhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15471796457374078158noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-82995010047008280762017-08-27T08:21:27.972+01:002017-08-27T08:21:27.972+01:00@John West - you're not a typical beer festiva...@John West - you're not a typical beer festival punter, though. And I'd stand by my assertion that the vast majority of consumption at GBBF or any other CAMRA festival falls within the category of "ordinary" beers. The fact that a handful of specials sell out quickly to geeks doesn't detract from that.<br /><br />Also do we know how many of that list of breweries *were* represented at GBBF 2017?Curmudgeonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02558747878308766840noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-90634936762927186412017-08-26T08:37:57.388+01:002017-08-26T08:37:57.388+01:00There's the rub - if it's going to be the ...There's the rub - if it's going to be the "bog standard stuff", I'll pass. Why bother? <br /><br />I agree with David - it's not about lines of keykeg and loads of murkbombs. It's about jazzing up the list a bit and maybe thinking a little more about pricing, aesthetic and entertainment (apparently lacking this year).<br /><br />Mudgie also says all cannot be represented. I suppose that's right, but looking at David's list, it's tough to imagine a Great British Beer Festival that wouldn't have the majority of these.<br /><br />Again, the likelihood in major urban centres capable of holding GBBF in 2017 is that more interesting beer selections will be available in a decent number of pubs.<br /><br />So why go?John Westhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15471796457374078158noreply@blogger.com