tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post5320997874274352737..comments2024-03-29T07:17:26.082+00:00Comments on Tandleman's Beer Blog: Clear As a Clear ThingUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger62125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-56008033525958879162014-02-03T13:07:08.958+00:002014-02-03T13:07:08.958+00:00My view is that if the customer knows in advance c...My view is that if the customer knows in advance cask ale will be served cloudy or hazy, that's fine. CAMRA could say, we express the wish that publicans will ensure that the beer drops bright before service but where they have no objection to selling a cloudy cask, a sign or notice should be posted to indicate this to people. <br /><br />GaryGary Gillmannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-88370896278669908672014-02-03T12:32:55.757+00:002014-02-03T12:32:55.757+00:00Gary: do you mean a desire that they should only s...Gary: do you mean a desire that they should only sell bright beer, and should avoid stocking intentionally cloudy cask ales? Or just a reminder that they should be selling beer clear unless it's explicitly meant to be otherwise?<br /><br />Cookie - that's fair enough, and to be honest I don't see why breweries like Moor would resist making it obvious that their beer isn't meant to be perfectly clear. In fact, they often do already afaict. Presumably because they know that if they don't then the pubs that stock their beers will get into loads of arguments with the customers about how the beers look, and that if stocking their beers causes your customers to think you're crap at keeping beer then you probably won't bother stocking them in future...DavidSnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-54845290381328566642014-02-02T14:41:57.402+00:002014-02-02T14:41:57.402+00:00I love this comment from StringersBeer: 'you r...I love <a href="http://stringersbeer.blogspot.co.uk/2014/01/dont-like-it-simply-take-it-back.html?showComment=1389881902557#c4402410017651384046" rel="nofollow">this comment</a> from StringersBeer: <i>'you rarely get to see a sour or "murky" beer round here. Not since Hartleys shut anyway.'</i> Curmudgeonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02558747878308766840noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-11842590019788948462014-02-02T14:15:15.556+00:002014-02-02T14:15:15.556+00:00Don't blame me fella. All I want is to be able...Don't blame me fella. All I want is to be able to buy a beer and know in advance what I am getting. If beer geeks want a surprise they can ignore pumpclips, but I'd like to know. A pint of Stella ain't a gamble.Cooking Lagerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02830924433230427226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-1241246198957026752014-02-01T21:32:17.568+00:002014-02-01T21:32:17.568+00:00TM: so you agree, great.
What was the other quest...TM: so you agree, great.<br /><br />What was the other question about? What do I know about what?pynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-80582983880889085712014-02-01T20:42:34.614+00:002014-02-01T20:42:34.614+00:00My view here, is CAMRA should not try to take any ...My view here, is CAMRA should not try to take any strong action, certainly not in the area of the definition of cask beer. The question of haze and cloud is too amorphous, we are more in the area of best practice and good cellarmanship than what real beer is or is not.<br /><br />Certainly I would not be opposed to a resolution of CAMRA's board expressing the desire that those serving real ale will strive to present it bright, in line with hundreds of years of optimal practice as adumbrated by countless brewing experts and other writers. That might do so good, but apart from that I think it is best to patronize places that use best practice and avoid those that don't. After that it is up to the (global) marketplace really.<br /><br />Gary<br /><br />P.S. I see nothing wrong with telling publicans too, that a cloudy pint is not liked. Customer feedback like this will assist them to decide what final course to take on the matter.Gary Gillmannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-59264500207356719782014-02-01T20:22:31.029+00:002014-02-01T20:22:31.029+00:00(Assuming, re the labeling thing, that people woul...(Assuming, re the labeling thing, that people would more or less universally agree to use it.)DaveShttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14030589043526494438noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-51299503567364399802014-02-01T20:21:07.153+00:002014-02-01T20:21:07.153+00:00So to cut back to my previous point, what do you r...So to cut back to my previous point, what do you reckon would be the ideal solution, given that the cloudy genie is out of the bottle and doesn't seem to be about to go back in?<br /><br />Would it be a voluntary labeling scheme (eg an icon to include on a pumpclip / label) so that it's always clear when a beer is meant to be cloudy? Or something else?DaveShttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14030589043526494438noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-56333237330256593562014-02-01T10:17:41.470+00:002014-02-01T10:17:41.470+00:00py: "What I do know is that go back 10 years ...py: "What I do know is that go back 10 years and in the vast, vast majority of UK pubs the best beer you could get would be, what, a keg Guinness? A Directors?"<br /><br />Agreed. What do you know? <br /><br />Tandlemanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06804499573827044693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-49174733287894317242014-02-01T00:15:09.790+00:002014-02-01T00:15:09.790+00:00No idea, I wasn't born in 1974. What I do know...No idea, I wasn't born in 1974. What I do know is that go back 10 years and in the vast, vast majority of UK pubs the best beer you could get would be, what, a keg Guinness? A Directors? <br /><br />Camra voted GK IPA to be the 2nd best beer in the country in 2004. I wouldn't water my garden with that shit.<br /><br />When I turned 18, the traditionalist beer industry offered me a choice of a load of shite - its hardly surprising that I now care very little about what they think.<br />pynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-12667286193830972502014-01-31T22:48:15.496+00:002014-01-31T22:48:15.496+00:00I just want to add, on the question Tandleman actu...I just want to add, on the question Tandleman actually posed, that I agree there as well. There is no point for CAMRA to try to obtrude an opinion/directive/rule on this. We are more in the realm of good cellarmanship. Given that sometimes cloudy beer was served even in the past - everyone "of a certain age" will remember the Monty Python joke about pond life in real ale - the issue of cloudiness in beer is one of degree, not anything absolute. You can't really define it although this issue is like a beer gone off, isn't it: you know it when you see it. But better to let customers' complaints adjust matters rather than any CAMRA rulings on the matter - albeit this is getting harder in the age of "London Cloudy", "London Murky", call it what you will.<br /><br />GaryGary Gillmannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-57077765103180786792014-01-31T22:24:47.092+00:002014-01-31T22:24:47.092+00:00I'm with Tandleman. So was (amongst countless...I'm with Tandleman. So was (amongst countless others) English brewing writer Frank Faulkner, writing in the late 1800's:<br /><br />http://books.google.ca/books?id=3DNFAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA229&dq=Frank+Faulkner+semi-cloudiness&hl=en&sa=X&ei=2B7NUIS3KKHc2QWMh4CYBw&ved=0CDMQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Frank%20Faulkner%20semi-cloudiness&f=false<br /><br />As you see, Faulkner says that a semi-cloudy condition interferes with the "delicate flavour" of beer, especially moderate gravity beer. Moderate gravity in the late 1800's meant 5-6% ABV. He is saying an excessive yeast taste hurts the beer.<br /><br />GaryGary Gillmannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-62891853669380819232014-01-31T21:24:17.848+00:002014-01-31T21:24:17.848+00:00So there was no good beer around in, say, 1974 the...So there was no good beer around in, say, 1974 then?Curmudgeonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02558747878308766840noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-64709229857269297002014-01-31T21:20:09.727+00:002014-01-31T21:20:09.727+00:00Well said Gary. I say again. Yeast bite is not goo...Well said Gary. I say again. Yeast bite is not good.Tandlemanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06804499573827044693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-20867787177234901762014-01-31T20:46:43.467+00:002014-01-31T20:46:43.467+00:00To be perfectly frank, 100s of years of beer histo...To be perfectly frank, 100s of years of beer history gave us a load of beer that tasted like absolute shite until the past 5 years. Thank god for the americans and the revolution.pynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-679047162858270952014-01-31T19:50:37.956+00:002014-01-31T19:50:37.956+00:00The question needs to be asked: why does hundreds ...The question needs to be asked: why does hundreds of years of British beer history - until very recently - show that people wanted beer clear? I cannot think of one instance in which a brewer or beer writer, into the immediate post-Jackson era, argued that cloudy beer was a good thing. But why again? Because a cloudy pint obscures the taste, imparts too much yeasty bite in the flavour. I have tested this myself numerous times with bottle-conditioned beer, pouring one clear and the other all-in. Every time I asked people which tasted better they chose the clear one. The reason is palate-related. Lager followed the same rules and was admired for this reason when first introduced to the English-speaking world.<br /><br />Does this mean a little haze is bad? No, but to encourage good practice, the beer should appear bright and was always made to do so until recently. Wheat beer is an exception, possibly its high wheat content makes a cloudy pint taste good (some interaction of the wheat and yeast), but an exception proves the rule in the old adage.<br /><br />Yet, new things come in, not always an improvement on what went before as we see in so many areas of life. This particular change seems well-night irreversible but I think it proceeds from a misunderstanding, originally in North America, of what unfiltered meant in England, and is to be regretted.<br /><br />Gary<br /><br />Gary Gillmannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-50374719961661476992014-01-31T17:16:04.695+00:002014-01-31T17:16:04.695+00:00So what % of the beer market does a particular sty...So what % of the beer market does a particular style or attribute have to cover before it is no longer required to carry a CAMRA enforced compulsory warning?<br /><br />Warning: this beer may taste of grapefruit.pynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-47402168622063360522014-01-31T17:05:34.591+00:002014-01-31T17:05:34.591+00:00Plenty of malty beer around in the big wide world ...Plenty of malty beer around in the big wide world outside the craft beer bubble. Wells Bombardier, for example, is a very common cask beer.Curmudgeonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02558747878308766840noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-14266085709925057632014-01-31T17:01:06.277+00:002014-01-31T17:01:06.277+00:00I've now got a mental image of a barperson in ...I've now got a mental image of a barperson in a fashionable craft beer bar saying something like "you know that this one's a subtle and well balanced traditional bitter, right? It's not to everyone's tastes, do you want to try a bit first?" DavidSnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-18604041209447714262014-01-31T16:54:55.022+00:002014-01-31T16:54:55.022+00:00I had a pint the other day that I was expecting to...I had a pint the other day that I was expecting to be a hoppy pale ale and it came out a dark brown colour with a malty flavour. I didn't send it back, although I was slightly disappointed because it wasn't what I had been after. It certainly made more difference to my enjoyment of the beer than had it been cloudy when I was expecting it to be clear.<br /><br />The question is: should I have been warned that it was a malty beer? its not like malty beer is particularly common anymore.<br />pynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-17400238284546493022014-01-31T16:52:44.470+00:002014-01-31T16:52:44.470+00:00You say that, but I've had bar staff earnestly...You say that, but I've had bar staff earnestly warn me that a beer was dark, the implication being that I might have been expecting Midnight Porter or whatever to be a mid-brown bitter and been disappointed when it wasn't...<br /><br />And I think that on the one or two occasions when I've come across intentionally sour beer on cask in pubs I've been warned by the bar staff and asked if I want to try it first as well. So yeah, it depends on the pub (as in, I'd expect a traditional real ale pub to be more cautious about all this sort of stuff than a hipster craft beer bar) but in general, letting people know in advance when the product they're buying won't necessarily be what they're expecting seems like good business sense.DavidSnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-36657657898720552852014-01-31T16:47:43.109+00:002014-01-31T16:47:43.109+00:00It is hard work Mudgie. I just hope that it doesn...It is hard work Mudgie. I just hope that it doesn't spread too far. Lovely yeast bite. Yum.Tandlemanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06804499573827044693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-36611067616898766582014-01-31T16:39:36.853+00:002014-01-31T16:39:36.853+00:00Sigh. There is a general expectation that cask bee...Sigh. There is a general expectation that cask beer will be clear. There is not a general expectation that cask beer will be hoppy.<br /><br />If, say, you ordered an unfamiliar keg lager in a pub and it came out as black as the ace of spades, you might well feel it would have been helpful for the font to say "dark lager".Curmudgeonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02558747878308766840noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-54315736327958014812014-01-31T16:33:34.392+00:002014-01-31T16:33:34.392+00:00Okay, thought experiment - suppose CAMRA came out ...Okay, thought experiment - suppose CAMRA came out with a standard labelling scheme for indicating a beer that's intentionally hazy or cloudy, and strongly encouraged brewers of such beers to incorporate it on their pumpclips. (I'm guessing that this is the sort of thing that people are imagining, although if there's some other concrete course of action being suggested then I'd be interested to hear it...) Suppose that brewers went along with it.<br /><br />Would this, on the whole, speed up or slow down the spread of such beer?<br /><br />Clue: Moor already seem to put "unfined and naturally hazy" (or words to that effect) on a lot of their pumpclips, which they presumably wouldn't do if they thought they'd be better off trying to palm off their unfined beer as normal beer that's been badly kept...<br /><br />Personally I agree that this would be a good thing, but as far as I can see, it'd be good news for people who want to sell more unfined beer, and bad news for people who worry about it confusing the message that cloudy beer is bad...<br /><br />So what else, then...DavidSnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-15856498276825981042014-01-31T16:26:12.507+00:002014-01-31T16:26:12.507+00:00OK, so I go into a pub and order a cask beer I hav...OK, so I go into a pub and order a cask beer I have never heard of before.<br /><br />It comes out distinctly hoppy, so I take it back to the bar and politely ask for an exchange.<br /><br />“Oh it’s meant to be like that,” I am told.<br /><br />“So why didn’t you tell me before I bought it?” I respond.<br /><br />If it’s not changed, that is a severe customer relations fail. Regardless of the merits or demerits of hoppy beer, if you serve it up to unsuspecting customers it will seriously antagonise them.pynoreply@blogger.com