tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post9168373510090743569..comments2024-03-23T04:23:48.076+00:00Comments on Tandleman's Beer Blog: Too Many Breweries?Unknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger24125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-19323391289674038322017-01-12T08:50:24.395+00:002017-01-12T08:50:24.395+00:00I did. As an analogy it's probably better suit...I did. As an analogy it's probably better suited to single purchase items like used cars rather than beer, where you can make purchase decisions based on previous experience. I suppose the question is whether punters can remember which beers they like and which they don't. Hence the importance of memorable branding if your beer is good, and generic branding if it isn't.Pynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-15091664879180518682017-01-11T21:46:42.817+00:002017-01-11T21:46:42.817+00:00Are there too many breweries,with too many pubs cl...Are there too many breweries,with too many pubs closing and not enough punters using them the answer must be yes even though I voted from my heart and said no! Citrahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07362292814716606046noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-788277435123212642017-01-11T16:13:17.067+00:002017-01-11T16:13:17.067+00:00Cometh the hour, cometh the man, eh py.
Did anyone...Cometh the hour, cometh the man, eh py.<br />Did anyone read Jon's post about information asymmetry. http://stringersbeer.blogspot.co.uk/2017/01/the-professor-lemons-peaches-and-cask.html?m=1Mike Fhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01687852405628401199noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-72203290225783960182017-01-11T14:22:25.177+00:002017-01-11T14:22:25.177+00:00>Its about making great beer in a cost-effectiv...>Its about making great beer in a cost-effective method that means you can still make a profit in a highly competitive market: agreed and a single person brewery is most likely not going to be able to do that unless that person has another income stream. A two person brewery is probably still borderline.Rob Nicholsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14871887147718814739noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-19028057884238700072017-01-11T11:17:28.784+00:002017-01-11T11:17:28.784+00:00This is the same stuff as I always post.This is the same stuff as I always post.pynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-65517635887263248012017-01-11T11:01:38.396+00:002017-01-11T11:01:38.396+00:00This is great stuff py. Keep taking the medication...This is great stuff py. Keep taking the medication. Three in a row. (-;Tandlemanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06804499573827044693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-12377184773606096712017-01-11T10:52:01.728+00:002017-01-11T10:52:01.728+00:00Of course, the role of pubs as middle-men between ...Of course, the role of pubs as middle-men between producers and consumers of beer complicates things somewhat. Their role is far more involved in the process of price-setting that a typical retailer, of say, car parts or frozen chips, and the effect of this is to complicate matters. The (often irrational and wholly inaccurate) beliefs of landlords as to what their customers will pay and what type of beers will attract new custom, is the ultimate arbiter of how much different breweries can charge for different products.<br /><br />You therefore often get the situation where a brewery makes a great product that punters would be willing to pay for, and the brewery knows this, and the punters know this, but unless they can persuade the landlord of the fact, then the brewer still can't get as much for the beer as it is really worth.<br /><br />Or conversely, a landlord continues with a beer because his customers are drinking it and he's just about breaking even, but secretly they all hate it and would drink far more of something else.<br /><br />etc etc.pynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-62997392325319129062017-01-11T10:02:52.275+00:002017-01-11T10:02:52.275+00:00"If you don't have a reputation for great...<i>"If you don't have a reputation for great beer, you are likely to be in trouble of some kind"</i><br /><br />A lot of small breweries seem to thrive on having a reputation for decent, reliable beer, and being good at running a business. <br /><br />Many brewery failures are due to the owners simply being poor businesspeople.<br /><br />Surely a key reason for the price premium that mainstream keg commands is consistency vis-a-vis cask. And, while I've not been checking in other pubs, John Smith's is now about the same price as Ruddles in Spoons.Curmudgeonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02558747878308766840noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-26388167235812944682017-01-11T09:48:37.226+00:002017-01-11T09:48:37.226+00:00Blimey. Two sensible posts from py in a row and tw...Blimey. Two sensible posts from py in a row and two that I agree with.<br /><br />I'm off to bake a cake!Tandlemanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06804499573827044693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-47291222271810636462017-01-11T09:41:36.166+00:002017-01-11T09:41:36.166+00:00"it's irrational for people who go on abo..."it's irrational for people who go on about how great cask is and, crucially, also think that Cloudwater or Buxton is worth a fiver a pint on keg (adjust for local prices) to then baulk at paying "over the odds" for a pint of the same on cask"<br /><br />This is determined by the price of available substitutes, surely?<br /><br />If I really want a keg beer and the choice is Cloudwater for £5 or some other similar craft beers for £5, then I'm going to pay £5, so it might as well be the Cloudwater.<br /><br />If I want a cask beer, and the choice is Cloudwater for £5 or some other similar cask beers for £3, then I'm going to pay £3. Cloudwater cask is good, but its not THAT good that I'm willing to pay an extra £2 for it.pynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-39394302237019852112017-01-11T09:40:22.642+00:002017-01-11T09:40:22.642+00:00Cask beer ought be more expensive. Cooking lager o...Cask beer ought be more expensive. Cooking lager ought to be the cheapest. Like in supermarkets.<br /><br />Pubs pricing is an irrational hangover from then past. Put the lager down a quid and add it to the bitter.Cooking Lagerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02830924433230427226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-44492860891712159282017-01-11T09:37:18.489+00:002017-01-11T09:37:18.489+00:00A premium product is one people are willing to pay...A premium product is one people are willing to pay more for than another product, if people are not willing to pay more for cask than some other form of beer, then cask is not a premium product.<br /><br />In the long run, a competitive marketplace will push all prices downwards to the breakeven point. We currently have a competitive cask market, but an uncompetitive keg market dominated by a handful of producers (this applies to craft keg and premium lagers alike).<br /><br />Hence the reason there is a price whack on keg that doesn't exist on cask. Its nothing to do with desirability of the product, its to do with the number of competitors.<br /><br />Cask prices are unlikely to go up (faster than inflation and taxation hikes). Its much more likely that keg prices come down to meet them. Craft keg brewers currently thinking "there's much more money in keg, no need to find a way of cutting costs, our customers will always pay a premium" are in for a nasty shock. <br /><br />Being a great brewer is about more than just making great beer. Its about making great beer in a cost-effective method that means you can still make a profit in a highly competitive market. pynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-51027199320808785342017-01-10T23:31:17.304+00:002017-01-10T23:31:17.304+00:00Well after a short while, I think the results of t...Well after a short while, I think the results of the survey are pretty much in. The bubble has been bursting for a while. Sadly it seems some good breweries like Hardknott are dragged down with the discopunting although as Dave admits, the location of their brewery maybe not ideal.<br /><br />Beartown brewery in Congleton is also insolvent - again :-(Rob Nicholsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14871887147718814739noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-54625986021366173652017-01-10T23:31:12.151+00:002017-01-10T23:31:12.151+00:00That wouldn't make sense if it's cheaper t...That wouldn't make sense if it's cheaper to make. IMO you're overstating the importance of production cost on the retail price of beer. What people are willing to pay is a much bigger factor. Cask beer is cheap in the UK because people expect it to be cheap, for better or worse.The Beer Nuthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14105708522526153528noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-79631345698050375952017-01-10T23:19:11.454+00:002017-01-10T23:19:11.454+00:00Well elsewhere it is somewhat exotic hence being d...Well elsewhere it is somewhat exotic hence being dearer surely?Tandlemanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06804499573827044693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-77729144497149522612017-01-10T23:18:28.237+00:002017-01-10T23:18:28.237+00:00Well elsewhere it is somewhat exotic hence being d...Well elsewhere it is somewhat exotic hence being dearer surely?Tandlemanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06804499573827044693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-11534331374947001842017-01-10T21:57:32.860+00:002017-01-10T21:57:32.860+00:00Cask beer is almost always more expensive than the...Cask beer is almost always more expensive than the same beer on keg. The only places I think of where it isn't are the UK and the handful of traditional lambic pourers left in Belgium. Have I missed somewhere?The Beer Nuthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14105708522526153528noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-58555047410089443102017-01-10T20:29:33.065+00:002017-01-10T20:29:33.065+00:00I was in a Spoons once where a guy ordered a pint ...I was in a Spoons once where a guy ordered a pint and a half of Heineken, a coke and a bag of crisps, and (rather vocally) couldn't understand why it was costing him over £8. If he'd swapped the beer for cask bitter he'd have been up two quid on the deal.<br /><br />I'm guessing that the Big Six didn't introduce the keg premium for the sheer hell of it, but because, at the outset, they were (relatively speaking) out of pocket and had investments to recoup. The real question isn't why keg came in at a price premium relative to cask - or why the same thing happened with 'craft keg' - but why prices have stayed that high. The only answer is that, for whatever reason, people have been willing to pay those prices (even in Spoons). Meanwhile, competition among cask beer providers has kept those prices low. I think the biggest lesson of all this is that when prices are effectively pegged, they stay pegged - so it's an awful lot easier to hold prices at a high level than to push them up.<br /><br />Thanks for the link, Peter!Philhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07009879034507926661noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-51269081219131039822017-01-10T20:28:07.406+00:002017-01-10T20:28:07.406+00:00I can only imagine cask costing more if the brewer...I can only imagine cask costing more if the brewery is set up mainly to produce keg, and so cask is a disruption to process. As a rule, cask is generally less expensive, although at production it might not be very much different.<br /><br />Where keg is more expensive is that there is a bit of an expectation for the brewer to support tap installation in some form or another. There is a requirement for more equipment in the brewery and an increased length of time in tank for keg. However, every brewery is different.<br /><br />For us, we have 5 main forms of packaging; cask, ecask, keg, ekeg and bottle. Having the right beer packaged for the right customer at the right time is a bloody nightmare. On top of that we have to have the right beer, or a new beer, or one we stopped brew ages ago and enough of a combination of them if we are sending out to a distributor. I'd love to simplify that a huge amount. Just Azimuth in keg and bottle would be great.<br /><br />Hey ho, we've got several beers going to a little beer festival somewhere in a little northern town next week. Cask and KeyKeg, That should be fun and I'm looking forward to it. Who's going to the trade session?HardknottDavehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10331611701318148310noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-91168325852741145612017-01-10T19:52:14.344+00:002017-01-10T19:52:14.344+00:00You should see what they charge for cask beer here...You should see what they charge for cask beer here in Holland.Ron Pattinsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03095189986589865751noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-31527174049583428052017-01-10T18:04:50.937+00:002017-01-10T18:04:50.937+00:00DaveS: Quite possibly. I mentioned in the footnote...DaveS: Quite possibly. I mentioned in the footnote I was getting in a mess. <br /><br />Right. Quick reread. No I'm not. Both points are equally valid but come from different perspectives.<br /><br />I think that you illustrate the apparently irrational behaviour that perplexes some brewers.<br /><br />Dave B. Think some bugger did. Cloud water? Tandlemanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06804499573827044693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-42061464359777410612017-01-10T18:04:46.199+00:002017-01-10T18:04:46.199+00:00DaveS: Quite possibly. I mentioned in the footnote...DaveS: Quite possibly. I mentioned in the footnote I was getting in a mess. <br /><br />Right. Quick reread. No I'm not. Both points are equally valid but come from different perspectives.<br /><br />I think that you illustrate the apparently irrational behaviour that perplexes some brewers.<br /><br />Dave B. Think some bugger did. Cloud water? Tandlemanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06804499573827044693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-31318356077225294242017-01-10T17:41:42.169+00:002017-01-10T17:41:42.169+00:00Aren't you contradicting yourself here?
On th...Aren't you contradicting yourself here?<br /><br />On the one hand you argue that people will pay more for keg than cask not because it's a better product but because it costs more to make. And on the other, you argue (via Phil) that a brewer shouldn't expect punters to pay more for their cask than they will other brewers' cask even if it's more expensive to make.<br /><br />In practice, I think Phil's point is closer to the truth, but misses one of the key points that people are making, which is essentially that it's irrational for people who go on about how great cask is and, crucially, also think that Cloudwater or Buxton is worth a fiver a pint on keg (adjust for local prices) to then baulk at paying "over the odds" for a pint of the same on cask.DaveShttp://brewinabedsit.blogspot.co.uknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8629758183547510158.post-1776190920372267742017-01-10T17:21:00.218+00:002017-01-10T17:21:00.218+00:00Did someone say cask was more expensive to produce...Did someone say cask was more expensive to produce? Not sure anyone actually said that. Margins are tighter, that's true.HardknottDavehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10331611701318148310noreply@blogger.com