Many thanks to all that replied to my wonderings about the price of craft keg. A couple of observations from me. One is that debating the thing on a blog is not made easier by the same debate being carried on simultaneously on Twitter. Some great comments were made on Twitter, but I certainly didn't have time to trawl them all together and add them into the blog mix. Is this just the way it goes? I suppose so, but it would have been more comprehensive if it could have all been done on the same social media, but I suppose, sadly, that's yesterday's thinking.
The second is that it seemed from the replies that there is a genuine concern about prices. Justifications by the chargers to the chargees seemed rather tenuous, not wholly convinving and appeared to indicate that there are limits for most that commented and those limits are already being pushed. The exercise was, I think, very informative, but to see it all played out, we'll just have to wait and see. I doubt that we've heard the last of that debate.
On the more general point of craft beer and bars, I was struck by the similarity to beer, with some of AA Gill's remarks about restaurants in this week's Sunday Times. Now love him or hate him, he is a guy that can turn a good phrase and he is quite an acute observer. Speaking of expensive restaurants he said "one of the social dividing lines of a city is between those that can afford to throw their credit cards onto the plate along with the bill and those who can't." And here is the key bit. "We like to hitch ourselves to things that are going well. It's a sort of social feng shui." He later went on to say ( and while he was speaking of trendy restaurants, you could just think craft beer bar and local pub) "if you haven't got a hip corner, or if all your corners are boarded up charity shops, just keep going to KFC." His final remarks (and here I've substituted beer for food): This is smart muscly anti drinking that gives a lot of people exactly what they want with flair and good nature. But it's monosyllabic drinking. It's culty without being cultured, civil, but not civilised."Now I don't think this does apply to beer in quite the same way, but if you stop and think about it, it does all kind of apply to the divide between craft beer and its devotees, as opposed to those that regard the whole thing with a hefty dose of scepticism. I guess that what is being said about trendy and upwardly mobile eating establishments, is that there will always be places that some simply can't afford, before you even start thinking of those that won't afford it. and that is simply how it is. Additionally, there are those for whom the Zeitgeist is more important than the price. That of course presupposes that place and time are more important than the product itself and I certainly wouldn't go that far.
Still, set in that context, since the world isn't fair, it can't really matter if beer in some places is ouchy on the wallet. Can it?
Maybe there is some kind of app to pull twitter comments together?
This Zeitgeist beer - did it comply with the Biergesetz during the brewing process ?
ReplyDeleteBut to answer your question seriously beer is and always has been a poor man's drink and anyone paying Brewdog-style prices for swill should have their head examined.
Is it too radical to suggest that if you think a beer is too expensive, you don't buy it?
ReplyDeleteBeer is and always has been a working man's drink, which is a bit different.
ReplyDeleteThe reason this new trend for expensive and socially-exclusive beer matters is that it is a new trend, and some of us don't like being socially excluded.
I don't know why people are singling Brewdog out, the majority of draft beers in their bars are cheaper than a pint at All Bar One or the majority of London pubs.
ReplyDeleteWell yes, people with more money than sense will always follow fads. Some eventually become mainstream, and then they complement themselves on having been "in at the start". Most, though, don't.
ReplyDeleteZak - No. That's a final outcome though and if it it was that simple, there would be no fun in writing about it. :-)
ReplyDeleteI've not used it, but a few people recommend http://storify.com/tour as a method of bringing together twitter posts in some kind of order.
ReplyDeleteThing about AA Gill, he's a massive snob (based on wealth rather than social class) and not shy of showing it. So if you haven't got a hip corner, or if all your corners are boarded up charity shops, just keep going to KFC is a very revealing line. The beer equivalent - not that anyone here is saying it - would be "if you haven't got a local craft beer bar, just keep going to Spoons".
ReplyDeleteI simply do not understand the argument "All beer must be cheap". And I certainly don't understand the claim that expensive beer makes someone feel excluded. Do you feel excluded by the price of Ferraris? Haut Brion? White truffles?
ReplyDeleteI think the point is not that beer should be cheap, but within the reasonable reach of the vast majority of drinkers.
ReplyDeleteSorry folks. Need to get to my pc to delete duplicated posts.
ReplyDeleteWhy should this be the case?
ReplyDeleteSurely if there is a market for bells and whistles beer, somebody should service it.
If all beer has to be made to a costing determined by the lowest common denominator, this would preclude many beers from being economically viable. this would in turn lead to an overall lowering of standards.
Thankfully the UK is a free country where people can run businesses and sell and purchase as they see fit.
To decry people for putting their hand in their pocket is simply inverted snobbery.
Martyn
ReplyDeleteI would never say that "all beer must be cheap": however I would like to understand why a particular beer is expensive.
If I came across an IPA from a relatively small overseas brewery I would expect to pay upwards of £6 a pint. I struggle to understand why an IPA from just up the road should cost the same price.
The only justification for a significant price difference between two British draught beers of a similar strength would be that one were of a much higher quality. Nobody has yet explained how serving a beer from a key keg can improve its quality to that great a degree.
Tim from Huddersfield
The reason its expensive is because its so damn hard to find, so that when people do see it, they are willing to pay more for it.
ReplyDeleteAlmost every pub I go in sells decent cask beer. There's maybe one pub within 50 miles of me that sells decent keg beer, and guess what, its expensive because they have zero competition and can basically charge what they like for it.
I largely agree with Zak, if it is too expensive then don't buy it. Martyn is also correct to point out other socially exclusive items.
ReplyDeleteHowever the wider context is that the most successful consumer group in Europe, CAMRA is campaigning to put up the price of the cheapest beers. Brewdog and many craft brewers express the opinion that minimum pricing would be beneficial and support it. Therefore the prices in the wider market come up for debate also.
Let them eat cake eh?
Tim- KeyKegs allow for dispense of conditioned beer without exposing the beer to extraneous CO2 or mixed gas. They prevent oxidation and decrease the likelihood of infection. They are a pretty cool bit of brewing technology which means that pubs and bars can sell interesting beer, and even beer fitting into many real ale descriptions, without having to employ someone to run the fine art of cellar management. This means a beer is reaching customers how the brewers intended it, publicans don't have to worry about beer going past its best and there is a lot more flexibility in temperature and dispense method.
ReplyDeleteAs far as the argument that all beer should be affordable to everyone, I personally think is a joke. You wouldn't say the same for any other consumable. And the opinion of beer being a working class drink I find insulting. What dose class have to do with it?
As far as I can tell this argument revolves around the fear of change that has plagued the brewing industry in the UK for the past decade. Many of your £6 pints aren't usually recommended to be served in a pint. Buy it in a half, third or schooner and it will be the same price as the pint. Yes you are getting slightly less for your money but the overall experience of the beer is far better than the majority of £2.80 pint. I think many people are settling for something mediocre rather than enjoying something truly brilliant.
"Do you feel excluded by the price of Ferraris? Haut Brion? White truffles?"
ReplyDeleteNo, but if it was being implied that you were a stick-in-the-mud in the world of motoring/wine/gastronomy if you weren't buying these products it would come across as exclusive.
To be honest, there's probably less price variation in beer than in most other consumer markets. What sticks in the craw is more the suggestion that expensive beer is where it's at.
Martyn - I referred to "this new trend for expensive and socially-exclusive beer"; I'm not saying that expensive beer is socially exclusive per se. Tandleman's post is describing a situation where expense goes with social cachet: the offering (fashionable restaurant meals in the example quoted) appeals to people partly on the basis of being exclusive, and the price is a large part of what makes it exclusive.
ReplyDeleteTransposed to the world of beer, that attitude has what I'm objecting to. To put it another way, I'm objecting because that attitude *has been* transposed to the world of beer, i.e. it never used to be part of it. Sports cars and white truffles (and whatever Haut Brion is, I guess) have always been exclusive luxury goods, whose appeal is based partly on their limited availability and high price. Good beer never has.
As far as the argument that all beer should be affordable to everyone, I personally think is a joke. You wouldn't say the same for any other consumable.
ReplyDeleteWhat I said was that good beer should be affordable, and I would say precisely that for any other consumable.
And the opinion of beer being a working class drink I find insulting. What dose class have to do with it?
Again, you're not replying to what people have actually said. Lord Eg said beer had always been a "poor man's drink"; I said it had always been a "working man's drink", by which I meant that you've never had to have a higher-than-average income in order to drink good beer on a regular basis. That's still true, but if "good beer" is redefined along the lines you seem to prefer it won't be true for much longer. I think that would be a really bad thing.
Phil: Thanks for addressing the actual point I was making. You are a rare beast.
ReplyDeleteI think it odd that folks should wish for higher prices. What reason, unless you are a brewer or a retailer, could be given for such a wish? That is kind of what the post was about.
And I have no idea what Haut Brion is either.
@Dan "Buy it in a half, third or schooner and it will be the same price as the pint. Yes you are getting slightly less for your money but the overall experience of the beer is far better than the majority of £2.80 pint."
ReplyDeleteIf you had said "sometimes" and "might" I may have found that a little less convincing than I do.
Having said that, I have no problem with people charging huge amounts for beer, or with mug punters buying it. I do have a problem with the corollary being that we should drag all prices upwards. How then would the differential in "quality" be charged? It is a quite illogical argument.
Oops: This instead. Blogger won't let me delete the original.
ReplyDelete@Dan "Buy it in a half, third or schooner and it will be the same price as the pint. Yes you are getting slightly less for your money but the overall experience of the beer is far better than the majority of £2.80 pint."
If you had said "sometimes" and "might" I may have found that a little more convincing than I do.
Having said that, I have no problem with people charging huge amounts for beer, or with mug punters buying it. I do have a problem with the corollary being that we should drag all prices upwards. How then would the differential in "quality" be charged? It is a quite illogical argument.
"To decry people for putting their hand in their pocket is simply inverted snobbery."
ReplyDeleteI disagree, at least to an extent.
Being a brewer (albeit a part time one), I know too well not all beer costs the same to make.
However (and harking back to the price post a few days ago) what I see happening is some breweries are making very good beer for a bit more than the mediocre beer. So far so good. But some (who I won't name) are making beer as good or maybe slightly better (or maybe not!) than the slightly more expensive beer, but charging a hell of a lot more (keykegs obviously don't help in that respect!). These beers cost maybe 30-50% more to make than the very good beer, yet sell for double the price. If no-one paid the absurd (IMO) prices, then the prices would have to fall. What I decry is not that someone can afford something that I can't/won't, but that by eagerly handing over the inflated sums, the prices remain inflated
Or the beer wouldn't get made?
ReplyDeleteSo replicate the style and undercut them?
ReplyDeleteIn response to the original post, there ARE people who gain pleasure from the feeling of exclusivity of paying more for something (the so called Veblen effect), but normally the market distorting effects of these consumers is washed away by the flood of sensible consumers who like to pay as little as possible for the stuff they like.
Roll on normality!
ReplyDeleteSession bitters have always been a working man's pleasure, not so barley wines and imperial stouts.
ReplyDeleteThe expensive beers you refer to, I assume, have a similar strength and therefore malt and duty bill?
These things take time to make. If a fermenter is in use for 14 days for a barley wine, but 4 days for a session bitter, there is an opportunity cost.
If it's matured, you have to take into account storage vessels and tied up capital.
It is not only justified, but neccesary to acheive a higher margin on this kind of thing.
Does "craft keg" have to be eye wateringly expensive? No. Last weekend I was in the Three Tunns in Bristol. Their four craft keg beers included a Kernel/London Brick Red Rye Ale @ 7.3%. It was £4.50 a pint. Not cheap but not madly expensive either. Wild Beer Modus Operandi was £4.50 as well while the two Arbor kegs (the pub is owned by Arbor) were both IPAs at 6.5% and they were £4.10 a pint.
ReplyDeleteThis kind of gives the lie to those who reckon five or six quid is the going rate.
How much was the price of standard sesson strength cask ale by comparison?
ReplyDeleteKnowing Bristol (admittedly not that well...) my guess would be somewhere in the region of £3ish?
In which case, given the 'craft keg' is likely roughly double the strength but not double the price, could a case be made that the 'craft keg' actually offered better value for money... ?
From what I recall cask was about £3.10 for beers of 4.5-ish. The point I'm making though is not which is better value but that the "craft keg" was not as outrageouly priced as it has been reported elsewhere, thus it
ReplyDeletedoesn't "have" to be that expensive.
Nail on the head, Mr Clarke.
ReplyDeletewe all know that craft beer will cost a bit more, but there is simply no need for it to cost double the 'going rate' for everyday beer
but, as long as people will fork out, the prices won't drop. that's not envy, or inverse snobbery, it's frustration that prices are ket artificially high by people with more brass than sense (IMO!)
For me the issue is the "normalising" of some beer being £5 and £6 a pint, with several contributors seeming to think that such prices are perfectly acceptable-they're not, whether you can afford it or not-although of course there's freedom of choice to say yes or no. I consider anything over about £3.20 expensive, and would be very unlikely to voluntarily (ie knowing the price in advance) pay more than £3.50 for any beer. There seems to be some collective brainwashing going on here-paying ( a lot) more for...keg beer! Can anyone actually explain how an artificially carbonated beer could ever taste better than the equivalent cask version? I've yet to try one.
ReplyDeleteFarmers Boy in St Albans is doing Kernel beers at £4 a pint which I don't mind, go to The Sloaney Pony same stuff would be £6.50 , so one is either making a loss or obscene profit (and the Sloaney has the econies of scale of a large group)I am hoping when the Supply is increased the prices will drop as Supply and demand will always affect prices.
ReplyDeleteAlso please don't compare beer to other products , there is not the same emotion in Truffles etc. as beer, just look at the ammount of bloggers, books or indeed drinkers of the stuff. On the plus side to craft beers pubs like the Cask and Craft have upped the game in London on the quality expected from a cask beer as well as keg, and hopefully woefully useless CAMRA endorsed pubs like The Bree Louise will have to follow their lead .
real ale mike, what can i say apart from a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.........
ReplyDeletemost craft keg beer is still LIVE ale with the yeastie beasties in suspension still ive not encountered any thats been sterile filtered [0.4 micron]as apposed to brewery conditioned(and youd be suprised how many real ale breweries i know fellow camra members rave over that do EXACTLY THE SAME!)key keg is not the same as a pint of smoothflow and is much more akin to real ale than you know.
also co2? what is it only good co2 in cask and bad in keg? its co2 its the bloody same! in fact its easier to get the co2 levels in a keg of tanked bright beer right than it is casking still fermenting beer from the fv. a lot of micros cask fermented out beer and then prime it with sugars or syrups to get their desired level of co2 thats still installing co2 not primarilly produced during production(although it is still produed by yeast rather than introduced from a tank)
jeez mike! try some decent keg from hardknott, summmerwine blueball, bluemonkey,bitches, kernel ,lovibonds, thornbridgeto name just a few you might be suprised
sincerely a brewer of cask ales from the northwest......
what is it only good co2 in cask and bad in keg? its co2 its the bloody same!
ReplyDeleteI have once - once, and I remember it clearly - had cask beer as heavily carbonated as keg always is. Now run along and come back when you've remembered your name.
CO2 produced through priming is indeed natural CO2 produced during production, as opposed to industrially produced CO2 injected after production.
ReplyDeleteand the fact that one lot of CO2 is introduced during one stage of production and the other lot is introduced during a different stage of production through a slightly difference means matters... why exactly?
ReplyDeletecritch says
ReplyDeletei think the point that the anonymous brewer is trying to make that in lots of cases the beer in a key-keg, eco-tainer or petainer will be the same well made beer as in the cask option from said breweries, they may have let it go bright(theres still of millions of yeast cells in a pint of bright beer) and transfered it brewery conditioned into the key-keg, but the ones ive tried have been excellent. no co2 from the dispense side touches the beer , it goes into an outer plastic bag and pushes it out of the spear ergo your getting considerably more like reale ale than your giving it credit for by saying "urrrrgh! keg!!"
i was as sceptical as hell till i went the indyman , and i bought considerably more excellent key-keg beer than the also excellent cask, and i didnt have one that was over carbonated.
critch liverpool organic
Phil, the anonymous brewer may have a very good reason for not leaving his (or her) name. For example, their employer may not smile upon them expressing an opinion in a public forum if it is contrary to the company's public view. This does not detract from the validity of what they say. In fact I'd say they make a fair point.
ReplyDeleteHowever, it's not the original point of the blog. You pays your money and you takes your choice.
If you hold to the view that a pint must be sub £3, and the world agrees and will pay no more, so it shall remain.
Meanwhile, duty goes up, malt goes up, hops go up, wages go up, beer goes crap.
John Ruskin had this to say on it:
There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey.
He may have been teetotal for all I know, but it's a fair point- if all you consider is price, you're going to end up with shite.
On the other hand, if you spend all your brass on craft brewed beer, matured in bat guano at £20 a half, you're going to end up wiping your backside on an image of the odious Mr Gill because you won't be able to afford bog roll.
There is a middle ground that takes discrimination to find. Sadly it costs money to learn this. possibly more money if your drinking is entirely price lead.
unless you move to Bristol.
if all you consider is price, you're going to end up with shite.
ReplyDeleteI'll let you know when that starts happening. For now I'm regularly drinking gorgeous (cask) beers at £3ish a pint.
in lots of cases the beer in a key-keg, eco-tainer or petainer will be the same well made beer as in the cask option from said breweries
Good. I've always thought that bright (unfiltered) beer, served inna-bag-inna-box, was the next best thing to cask. Can't imagine the situation in which it'd be better than cask (and worth paying more for), but maybe I'm just unimaginative.
Well done you!
ReplyDeleteI expect you're a well informed drinker. I suspect that knowledge has cost you a few quid to aquire. That was part of the point I was making- you have to kiss a few frogs before you get a prince.You should share your wisdom. Name names! great beers at great prices?
With regard to keykeg, I suspect you're unwilling to pay for beers that suit it as they tend to be 6%plus- if you can get it for sub £3, do tell!
First off, it's quite possible for a publican to stick a premium of a few pence on stronger beers, or no premium at all. I've paid a fiver a pint for strong & unusual cask beers a couple of times, but prices close to the rest of the bar are much more usual.
ReplyDeleteAnyway, I'm not talking about paying more for strong beers, rare beers, limited-edition beers or w.h.y. What I'm sceptical about is paying more for keykeg as compared to cask.
Incidentally, I think what would do more to defuse the craft-vs-CAMRA row than anything else would be if brewers who use bag-inna-box started advertising it. As you say yourself, Anon, beer-inna-bag-inna-box isn't that different from brewery-conditioned beer in a bottle, which most CAMRA types tolerate (and drink). Come to that, if the beer hasn't been pasteurised or otherwise dicked-about, it's basically no more than re-racked bright beer (inna bag inna box). If it hasn't been filtered to the max it may even pass CAMRA's yeast test and qualify as r**l *l*.
That being the case, why do so many craft keg brewers insist that it's totally, utterly and utterly totally different from that boring old "real ale"? And why do so many of them insist on making it look and feel as much as possible like old-style keg (i.e. very very cold and very very fizzy)?
Kit like keykegs seem to me to offer the best opportunity yet for a bit more mutual understanding between crafterati and real ale tw*ts. It's a shame it's not being used that way.
and the fact that one lot of CO2 is introduced during one stage of production and the other lot is introduced during a different stage of production through a slightly difference means matters... why exactly?
ReplyDeleteI was responding to the idea that injected CO2 is 'practically the same as' naturally produced CO2. Whether this matters to someone is a matter of preference. It does matter to me.
Why? because the artificial gassing is usually overdone. Can't remember ever having to swirl off CO2 in a cask-conditioned beer, but normally have to with keg beer.
W.r.t. 3 quid cask, I had lots and lots and lots of *great* cask beer for around that price or less during my recent holiday week in Sheffield and the Peak District. Specific beers of note can be found by browsing my tweets from 9th to 16th October.
I'll have to pop round the KeyKeg stand at next week's spectacular beverage & brewing industry trade fair in Nürnberg.
ReplyDeletehttp://tinyurl.com/keykegbeviale
Wonder if they'll be pouring anything. And if they'll have something on cask just for the sake of comparison!
Phil
ReplyDeleteIt's an interesting point you make about dicking about with beer. Sheering forces caused by filtration, centrifugation, overvigorous downstream processing do indeed have a deleterious effect on beer. Additionally, forcing gas through a beer will carry off volatiles such as hop aroma.
Filtration does in fact occur in some larger real ale breweries, where the beer is filtered and then primed and repitched to give exact carbonation and clarity. A neat trick, producing some excelent beer. However, it won't taste as good as a less processed beer. It will be more consistent and reliable. It's also responsible, when injudiciously applied, for the crumby offerings of some of our larger real ale brewers.
Natural, non dicked about keg beers will still retain the peaks and troughs of a more 'craft' cask conditioned beer. This is the case if the carbonation is a. natural or b. applied in tank via blanket pressure.
Carbonation and temperature are relevant to stlye. Warm flat larger is deeply unpleasant- if you're me that is. Similarly, if you're me well produced IPA's in the 7%+ area taste good fizzy and cold (6 to 8 deg C, 1.8 to 2.2 vol CO2 to be pernickity). To fizz, chill and keg a session bitter or mild is a desecration (again, only if you're me) as it would remove all the twists and subtleties that make that type of beer beautiful.
Now, I wouldn't seek to criticise the entire membership of CAMRA, it's as diverse as transvestism (theres a lot of ground between Diana Ross and Margeret Thatcher), however, the central dogma of cask good, keg bad is entirely bunk. Beer is a lot more diverse, complex and nuanced than a simple statement. That's what makes it so good.
How is this relevant to the original point? Well, it isn't.
Another 2 central tenents of CAMRA are promoting diversity and campaigning for a fair deal for the consumer. Establishing exactly what a fair deal is is the tricky part, as if people where to only pay x much for a pint, regardless of means of production, ingredients etc, diversity would doubtlessly suffer.
Why is CAMRA relevant to 'craft' beer? Well, it isn't, however it does campaign for 'real' cider and perry, and may have a change of heart one day. Or maybe rename itself The Campaign for Cheap and Flat. If a break away group does either of these things, I'll join it as they're all good things (fizzy IPA,cask session bitter, not cider, it's horrid (I think so at least))
So, how much is too much?
I've no idea, depends on what i've got in my pocket, what I have in front of me, the occasion, and whether or not I've imbibed enough to make me foolhardy.