Boak and Bailey - Gawd Bless 'em - suggested on Twitter that there should be a guide to pubs that are child friendly. I wondered why, as being childless, it didn't really occur to me that there might be such a need. This set off quite a storm on Twitter with aggrieved parents defending their rights to bring their offspring into the pub, as and when they like and bemoaning the fact that some pubs don't take the same child friendly view. I quite liked this post, in answer to Boak and Bailey (who also seem to have suffered adversely from a "No Children" policy), which summed up one aspect of the argument succinctly, if not to my mind at least, persuasively.
I was, as recently as last Friday, in quite a rough pub. I was taken aback somewhat as I entered, to find ensconced in a corner of the small bar area, two young parents, a pram and a sleeping child. I wondered somewhat idly why they felt the need to be there, rather than in the spacious lounge, as the cramped bar was rather reduced by their presence. But I forgot about them and the child slept on until departure. In the case of my own local, we most certainly are, if not child friendly, child tolerant and it does give me the opportunity to observe. One thing. Children - and you can trust me on this one - don't sit still. If there is more than one, they pinch each other, they chase each other and they run in and out of the door, which, if you are in my seat in winter is a right pain. They get fed up. They wander around. They want to buy their own crisps at the bar. they play noisy electronic games with the sound up - a sound that parents have long since learned to tune out. They really, in most cases I'd venture, don't want to be there. They are bored by pubs. I reason though, that they bring money in and keep my boozer open, so all in all, no problem to me really and actually in the main, they don't run wild and parents do look after them properly. But it isn't always so.@BoakandBailey @tandleman walked into the Turks head in st Helens with a sleeping baby in a sling and it was like I was wearing a bomb vest— James, 35, SoWeTo (@JimbaudTurner) July 7, 2016
I was talking to one of my local pub managers recently about children when I was relating an experience of children running wild and unchecked in a different pub. He sighed and advised me that the issue is that staff are very wary about telling children not to run around and if they ask parents to do so, they are rarely co-operative and often abusive. The parents don't see any harm being done and are too busy enjoying themselves to think it a problem. They rarely see their own children with a detached view. If confronted, they threaten not to come back , but they are often high spenders on meals as well as booze and customers are needed. Simpler to turn a blind eye unless it gets really out of hand. Two sides of this argument are illustrated below:
I could go on, but one thing is for sure. Pubs would not see the need to restrict children if they perceived that there are no problems with them. Over the years they have realised that the issue is divisive and doubt if they can get the balance right, hence the plethora of restrictions, caveats, reluctant acceptance and outright banning.@oldmudgie @ErlangerNick @tandleman @petedrinks @BoakandBailey @JimbaudTurner pubs should police bad behaviour in kids or adults— craig (@CAGarvie) July 7, 2016
The Good Pub for the Sprogged Guide might just suit all parties. Much need information for both sides of this vexing divide. Go Boak and Bailey. Answer the call.
A thought. Aren't all these Happy Eater, Chef and Brewer, Toybox type places a better place for a child? They provide things for them to do, whereas an ordinary pub doesn't. And some sell decent beer too.
A second thought. Hasn't society changed so much that this sums up the matter too?
Lastly. Sorry for quoting you so much Craig.but you have a firm and quotable point of view.@CAGarvie @tandleman @ErlangerNick @BoakandBailey @JimbaudTurner I think that boat sailed years ago, sadly— Pete Drinks (@petedrinks) July 7, 2016
27 comments:
Does every place have to be for everybody?
Can there be places that are for some but not others?
So long as there is someplace for every person and no one has nowhere?
That includes all the places beardy folk deride as well as the places they cherish.
On our summer 2014 visit to visit family in Scotland, I was struck how pubs were allowed to bar children completely. That'd be illegal in Canada but, on the other hand, we don't have open pubs. By that I mean plenty of mid-floor open space. Our taverns and pubs are full of chairs and tables. No clear runs for happy children. One bartender pal in the mid-80s shared that they slipped a half ounce of vodka into rude kids' drinks.
Two different licensees I've chatted to both told me they have had to chase after children running out of the pub doors into busy streets while their parents chatted and drank oblivious of the danger to their little darlings. One of them got so sick of doing so that she banned children altogether. Even without the element of danger, it's strange how some parents can't see that noisy children running wild in a pub annoy most other customers, or perhaps they simply don't care. I'm not hostile to children in pubs, but I have turned round at the door and walked out when faced with a noisy room that resembles a crèche more than a public house.
Most pubs are not great places for children. It's fine for a short time, especially if there's a meal, but when the children understandably get bored, the parents should put the other customers as well as their own children before their own wish to continue drinking. There is also a safety issue about children running wild: bar staff with their hands full may not see a tot dash in front of their feet, causing a trip that could seriously injure adult and child alike. It has nearly happened a couple of times to me when I've had my hands full.
If they want more drink after leaving, they should take some booze home.
But the issue *is* divisive and therefore there can never be a one-size-fits-all solution. I have six young cousins aged between 5 and 10. I love them dearly, and they get generous birthday and Christmas presents. But the last thing I'd want is to be in a pub with them when I just want a quiet drink.
What on earth is wrong with some pubs being child-friendly, others being adults-only, and the market deciding? And where have I heard that kind of idea before?
It's also a problem that licensees are extremely reluctant to act on disruptive behaviour by children for fear of appearing, er, curmudgeonly.
Nev is entirely right, btw.
@Alan - are no licensed premises at all in Canada allowed to ban children? Not even wet-only urban bars? Can they even have a curfew for children?
I take my kids (3&5) into pubs that do food and have a children's menu/play area (in other words pubs specifically catering to families) in order to eat and I expect them to sit with us and behave appropriately.
I wouldn't take my kids into a wet-led pub because that's the sort of place I go to get away from them.
In years to come they might be allowed to join me in such establishments for a drink of pop and a packet of pork scratching, but only if they are willing to sit still and discuss sport or similar.
If you think this topic is divisive, start the same conversation about pets...
The other side to it: we went to a pub for a pub quiz the other night (and smashed it, thanks for asking). Since some of the questions were on the theme of "Buffy the Vampire Slayer", and since both my kids are (like ourselves) massive fans, my daughter naturally wanted to come along (number 1 son is still away at university). She's 16; on checking, it turns out that 16- and 17-year-olds can come and go on licensed premises as they please (as long as they don't buy or drink alcohol), so she came along and it was fine. I don't think anyone even noticed there was an Under 18 on the premises - she was sat in the corner with us, not doing anyone any harm or drawing any attention to herself. But until I checked the law, both she & her Mum were dead against risking it; they were convinced that we'd get thrown out and/or the atmosphere would be forbiddingly 'grown up' and macho.
It's only partly about actual policy, this question; it's mostly about expectations and assumptions. It's not an original observation, but we seem to have got the worst of both worlds - you can't tell kids to sit down and play quietly, but you can tell them (and their parents) that they can't come in at all.
I'd say dogs (which I assume is what you mean by pets) are a lot less divisive a subject than children. Keep them out of dedicated dining areas and it's fine. See here.
Also worth repeating a comment from that blogpost:
"Me and my OH have long used “dogs allowed” as a benchmark as to whether or not a pub is worth going into. Even if we are travelling without our dog we ask nevertheless. Without fail, all the pubs which say no turn out to be rather soulless, unfriendly places which we wouldn’t choose to visit again – no matter how nice they look, or how “reasonable” their excuses are for not allowing them – whereas the ones which say yes are always warm, friendly and sociable. Although it has surprised a few bar staff when we walk in, having asked if dogs are allowed, without said pooch in tow."
Same goes for midgets. Pal of mine is a midget and he tells me pubs that allow midgets are the best pubs.
It's province by province, Mudge. Here in Ontario, section 30(10) of the Liquor License Act general regulations allows for age restriction: "(10) No person under nineteen years of age shall enter or remain on premises in which the sale of liquor is authorized if the person knows that a condition of the licence or permit for the premises prohibits the entry of persons under nineteen years of age." But It does not appear to be commonly applied or made a license condition: https://www.ontario.ca/laws/statute/90l19#s30s1
There are obvious social restrictions. It would be weird to have a kid in pub after 8 or 9 pm but our local brew pub has family meals at Saturday dinners so at 7:30 pm lots of kids might be running around. And there are places no one in their right mind would take a kid. But I have never heard the staff barring families generally like I heard commonly (and politely) at the door in Edinburgh - places like the Cafe Royale, Abbotsford and Malt Shovel. The Abbotsford had a very nice second story we were invited to use for a lunch. We were also fine taking the kids into other pubs in places like North Berwick or Largs but we were with local family so that might have made a difference - not tourists but relatives.
Dangit, no time to comment properly. Love the bit from Boak & Bailey about the origins of banning kids from pubs: the temperance movement. Explains a lot about the common prohibition on kids in American watering holes, I bet. (So much US expansion occured during the temperance movement.)
More later...if I can be arsed.
And why it's not a thing on this continent.
as I said over at B&B, I’m amazed that this is still an issue, 12 years after doing CAMRA’s guide to family pubs. Well-behaved kids and well-behaved dogs, let ’em all in.
Blimey. Time for a new edition clearly. Get pitching.
Blimey. Time for a new edition clearly. Get pitching.
I agree with Curmudgeon that there is no need for a 'one size fits all' approach.
Since I began making a point of visiting different pubs to write the CAMRA column for our local paper, I've been slightly surprised how many pubs do admit children and dogs, sometimes in certain areas or at certain times. If I wanted to take a child to a pub, I'd be inclined to phone first to ask, rather than make the trip only to be disappointed.
Thanks for this blog, way better written than my response.(and happy to have been quoted)
http://make-mine-a-half.blogspot.co.uk/2016/07/children-in-pubs.html
‘get pitching’, you must be kidding…
"What on earth is wrong with some pubs being child-friendly, others being adults-only, and the market deciding?"
Nothing wrong at all, but how to enforce it? It's obvious to you and me -- and most parents too, I'd reckon -- but there are always "Those Parents". And any pub that dares to suggests there might be better alternatives for little Sproglin and Sproglina will not only get an earful, but will suffer the sh*t-storm on Yelp, Twitter, Facebook, etc. from "Those Parents".
Hi Peter! Thanks for including my truncated anecdote in your post.
As you know I'm a publican as well as a parent. I certainly don't think that I have a right to bring my offspring into the pub, as and when they like. And I'm not bemoaning the fact that not all pubs don't allow children in at all times: the pubs I manage, for example, don't allow children in the evening.
The main reason that the guide would be so useful is that there is literally no way of knowing what a pubs policy will be until you cross the threshold! As any fule kno the Turks Head is a splendid example of a proper two room boozer: there's a public bar for vertical drinking, superleague and the lads plus a saloon where I tend to go for my pint of bitter with my mother-in-law. You can perhaps see why I tried to chance my arm for a quiet pint in peace while the baby was asleep, tucked in the corner out of everyone's way/
Anyway, as it was, I went down the road to the Cricketers Arms a bigger, rowdier open plan boozer where we were welcomed with open arms!
Short version: pubs are not obligated to have children; there's no way of telling what a pubs policy is before you go in and it can often be counter-intuitive ; a guide would be useful.
As a side note: I've been served BY children in both my favourite London pubs.
Go everywhere in Europe, not an issue.
Go to Britain, a big issue.
Brexit !
@Piet_V - doesn't the rest of Europe have a much clearer distinction between eating places and drinking places? Is it common to see children in bars that do not serve food?
Anyway, in case anyone missed it, I did a new blog on this subject here.
"... there is literally no way of knowing what a pubs policy will be until you cross the threshold!"
I'd suggest a quick phone call before setting out.
@Nev - not that easy if you're on holiday and browsing various pubs in a resort. If pubs put "No children" on the door they would probably attract custom :-)
pubs should be for adults. I dont want children running round my legs when I want a quiet pint.
Unfortunately too many parents feel they can leave there parental responsibilty at the door while they enjoy there evening.
perhaps the answer is too ban children after 9pm as they should be in or getting ready for bed by then.
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